But Pink Foot is not a species of bird, so capitals would be incorrect...
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Campaign to standardise the capitalising of English names of species (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter GraemeLyons
- Start date
GraemeLyons
Member
A hugely patronising reply. To start with, you are using the lazy argument known as 'The Fallacy of Relative Privation'. Yes, there are more important thigs in the world but that doesn't mean it's not important. By that logic, no one would ever deal with anything but the perceived worst problem. It also does not mean that I or any of the 175+ people who have signed it spend the rest of our time sitting on our arses. We clearly don't, I've dedicated my life to wildlife conservation and this is occupying very little time. Same for many of the people who have signed this. And the time it takes to sign it is considerably less than it took you to write your reply.
Secondly, I doubt you have even read the posts, as I put a clear and logical argument, with it's basis firmly in science, as to why I think this is important. And all the people signing it are thinking along those lines. Wasting our time for our own entertainment is short a petty and short-sighted reply. Maybe read the original post and then you could formulate a better and less offensive argument. I don't expect everyone to agree but I don't like it when people get my motives so utterly wrong Why English names of species should ALWAYS be capitalised
Steve Lister
Senior Birder, ex County Recorder, Garden Moths.
But that is not really relevant - in this case it is the sloppy use of 'pink feet' rather than anything to do with capital letters. If it said '1 ad. with pink-footed geese', no problem of understanding.
Just for amusement, consider the following:
An arctic tern is a common tern, but an Arctic Tern is not a Common Tern.
A herring gull is a common gull but a Herring Gull is not a Common Gull.
A Lesser Black-backed Gull is a yellow-legged gull, but a Yellow-legged Gull is not a Lesser Black-backed Gull.
A Mediterranean Gull is a black-headed gull, but a Black-headed Gull is not a Mediterranean Gull.
A Grey-lag Goose can be a pink-footed goose, but a Pink-footed Goose cannot be a Grey-lag Goose.
A Puffin is a little auk, but a Little Auk is not a Puffin.
A Little Swift is a white-rumped Swift but a White-rumped Swift is not a Little Swift.
A Hoopoe Lark is a desert lark, but a Hoopoe Lark is not a Desert Lark.
A White Wagtail is not a white wagtail, but an albino wagtail could be.
A Finsch's Wheatear is a pied wheatear, but a Finsch's Wheatear is not a Pied Wheatear.
A Blackcap is a melodious warbler but a Melodious Warbler is not a Blackcap.
An arctic tern is a common tern, but an Arctic Tern is not a Common Tern.
A herring gull is a common gull but a Herring Gull is not a Common Gull.
A Lesser Black-backed Gull is a yellow-legged gull, but a Yellow-legged Gull is not a Lesser Black-backed Gull.
A Mediterranean Gull is a black-headed gull, but a Black-headed Gull is not a Mediterranean Gull.
A Grey-lag Goose can be a pink-footed goose, but a Pink-footed Goose cannot be a Grey-lag Goose.
A Puffin is a little auk, but a Little Auk is not a Puffin.
A Little Swift is a white-rumped Swift but a White-rumped Swift is not a Little Swift.
A Hoopoe Lark is a desert lark, but a Hoopoe Lark is not a Desert Lark.
A White Wagtail is not a white wagtail, but an albino wagtail could be.
A Finsch's Wheatear is a pied wheatear, but a Finsch's Wheatear is not a Pied Wheatear.
A Blackcap is a melodious warbler but a Melodious Warbler is not a Blackcap.
Kirk Roth
Rarely to be taken seriously
More than just being used to it, I think your example demonstrates several people's points in this thread. It would seem entirely pointless to capitalize the Finnish name and I would agree that some concerted effort to raise "capitalization awareness" for such bird names would seem pedantic. However, English does not have the luxury of compounding bird names or having a quotation convention, so capitalization is the easy solution that is native to that language.
Although the devil in me would find it amusing to put hyphens between every word and watch certain people unravel...
Mysticete
Well-known member
I mean, honestly there are some hyphenated names that already make my eyes roll....
Kirk Roth
Rarely to be taken seriously
Southern-Blue-eared-Glossy-Starling then? How about using a unique font to distinguish common names, ala italicizing scientific names. I propose comic sans
I can't believe I'm about to type this, but the youth culture in social media have another solution worth just as much consideration - it would go something like SoUtHeRn BlUe-EaReD gLoSsY sTaRlINg. Doesn't it hurt your eyes just to read it?
Alright, I will now concede that I am wasting time.
GraemeLyons
Member
Could I use this to illustrate the point further? If so, who should I credit? It's great!
Sangahyando
Well-known member
I would just like to add that capitalisation of vernacular bird names makes the hobby more accessible to new birders and outsiders, as per the point the OP raised about reducing confusion. It is similar to diacritics used in writing, e.g. in the Arabic alphabet (or the Umlauts used in the Latin one). Sure, those markers look like they make the whole thing needlessly complicated at first glance, but they are actually relaying information that is important to understanding the pronunciation, or even the meaning, of the word, particularly for people who are less talented at language or at understanding social cues or at inferring things from contexts that might be obscure to them. Sure, those "in the know" might find all those rules superfluous because it's all so obvious to them, but for others, they're a great help.
GraemeLyons
Member
Out of all the people who have commented positively, would you mind adding your name to the list of people in favour? I think the commenting on my blog has been a clunky way to do it, so if you were able to just give me the thumbs up here and say a job/vocation/experience that might give it more weight, that would be greatly appreciated!
James Lowther
Well-known member
Molecular Biologist
paranoid numanoid
Well-known member
Very interesting to think about this now: we'd capitalise the first word of the name if it was at the beginning of a sentence, or perhaps standing in a list or index. Red grouse.
The genus (or "noun") we could capitalise as a proper name in English, although not necessarily, as in red Grouse. The "red" is just an adjective and wouldn't normally be capitalised in English - unless the WHOLE, taken together, the noun plus the adjective, IS the proper name, in which case it would be correct (and perhaps desirable, for clarity), to capitalise both words as one "combination" proper name, Red Grouse, which is what I'd vote for.
But it may still not be correct to capitalise each word, such as in the putative case of Red-Backed Shrike, as the hyphen links "backed" to "red" as one word; it should therefore read Red-backed Shrike. Would the capitalisers be content with that, as it bends only to laws of English grammar? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Of course the laws in German for capitalisation for nouns are different, and the French noun-adjective order is back-to-front compared to English, (or perhaps ours is front-to-back compared to theirs!) But still, in French, the question would be whether to capitalise both words as one whole combination proper name.
A quick flick through my collection proved quite eye-opening:
lower head-casers:
Gilbert White, Selborne 1789, Illustrated edition (2004)
RSR Fitter & RA Richardson, Collins Guide to British Birds, Revised (1966) reprinted 1973
James Fisher, Shell Bird Book, 1966
Christine Jackson, British Names of Birds, 1968
Montagu, Ornithological Dictionary, 1802, ed 1831
Macleod, Key to the Names of British Birds, 1954 (Jobling gives this as a reference and source in his Dict. Scientific Bird Names, 1991, but doesn't follow his example.)
Stephen Moss, Mrs Moreau's Warbler, How Bords Got Their Names, 2019.
Betwixt and betweeners:
Charles Swainson, Provincial Names and Folk Lore of British Birds, 1885 (uses Capital letter for the first name only)
DAS KAPITAL-IZERS:
Alfred Newton, Dictionary of Birds ,1896
RSPB Where To Discover Nature in Britain and Northern Ireland, 2009
Heinzel Fitter & Parslow, The Birds of Britain and Europe with North Africa and the Middle East, 3rd ed. 1974
William Lockwood, Oxford Dictionary of Bird Names, 1984
James Jobling, Dictionary of Scientific Bird Names, 1991
Francesca Greenoak, All the Birds of the Air, 1979; British Birds, Their Folklore, Names and Literature, 1997
John Braidwood, Ulster-Scots Bird Names, in Ulster Folk Life, 1965
Strangely the RSPB seem to have changed sides. Score currently 7-7!
The genus (or "noun") we could capitalise as a proper name in English, although not necessarily, as in red Grouse. The "red" is just an adjective and wouldn't normally be capitalised in English - unless the WHOLE, taken together, the noun plus the adjective, IS the proper name, in which case it would be correct (and perhaps desirable, for clarity), to capitalise both words as one "combination" proper name, Red Grouse, which is what I'd vote for.
But it may still not be correct to capitalise each word, such as in the putative case of Red-Backed Shrike, as the hyphen links "backed" to "red" as one word; it should therefore read Red-backed Shrike. Would the capitalisers be content with that, as it bends only to laws of English grammar? Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Of course the laws in German for capitalisation for nouns are different, and the French noun-adjective order is back-to-front compared to English, (or perhaps ours is front-to-back compared to theirs!) But still, in French, the question would be whether to capitalise both words as one whole combination proper name.
A quick flick through my collection proved quite eye-opening:
lower head-casers:
Gilbert White, Selborne 1789, Illustrated edition (2004)
RSR Fitter & RA Richardson, Collins Guide to British Birds, Revised (1966) reprinted 1973
James Fisher, Shell Bird Book, 1966
Christine Jackson, British Names of Birds, 1968
Montagu, Ornithological Dictionary, 1802, ed 1831
Macleod, Key to the Names of British Birds, 1954 (Jobling gives this as a reference and source in his Dict. Scientific Bird Names, 1991, but doesn't follow his example.)
Stephen Moss, Mrs Moreau's Warbler, How Bords Got Their Names, 2019.
Betwixt and betweeners:
Charles Swainson, Provincial Names and Folk Lore of British Birds, 1885 (uses Capital letter for the first name only)
DAS KAPITAL-IZERS:
Alfred Newton, Dictionary of Birds ,1896
RSPB Where To Discover Nature in Britain and Northern Ireland, 2009
Heinzel Fitter & Parslow, The Birds of Britain and Europe with North Africa and the Middle East, 3rd ed. 1974
William Lockwood, Oxford Dictionary of Bird Names, 1984
James Jobling, Dictionary of Scientific Bird Names, 1991
Francesca Greenoak, All the Birds of the Air, 1979; British Birds, Their Folklore, Names and Literature, 1997
John Braidwood, Ulster-Scots Bird Names, in Ulster Folk Life, 1965
Strangely the RSPB seem to have changed sides. Score currently 7-7!
Last edited:
Was Red-Backed Shrike ever being considered? No question that it should be Red-backed Shrike. And since Red-backed Shrike is a proper noun, and proper nouns are always capitalized in English, then the lower-case case has no legs to stand on in my opinion! In the English language at any rate.
paranoid numanoid
Well-known member
Just thinking it through, antbird, I'm sure there's someone somewhere considering that kind of "putative" over-capitalisation, which would undermine the credibility of the cause for change, which is a good one.
I think it's always good to get the principles clear at the outset.
And regarding proper nouns always being capitalised in English, I'm not sure they always are.
Last edited:
paranoid numanoid
Well-known member
Forgive me if I've missed something, but is there a move to capitalise the genus names too, eg Eagles for eagles?
I'm also interested in where the RSPB ruling/response can be found? Sounds an odd sort of opposition.
I'm also interested in where the RSPB ruling/response can be found? Sounds an odd sort of opposition.
dantheman
Bah humbug
You mean, as an example; "I went birding today to the lake and saw a couple of eagles, including a White-tailed Eagle and a distant unidentified eagle sp." ... ?
Not heard any suggestions that genus names should be capitalised (and also the word after the hyphen should always be lower case per earlier question).
DMW
Well-known member
If I understand your question correctly, I don't capitalise generic bird names, so for example I would write "Australian robins are not related to European Robin, and American Robin is not a robin but a thrush."
