MarcelHaas
Well-known member
Common Pheasant should have been in category A indeed, as it occurs in the Caucasus. Well spotted!
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Checklist of the birds of the Western Palearctic (EBN Italia) (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter MarcelHaas
- Start date
Richard Klim
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Yes, Graeme - the 1986 record (photographed in the hand).
But is the subspecific ID formally accepted by IRDC...?
Just two words on Black -headed Penduline Tit(BHPT)
in Azerbeijan apparently a hybrid population between Eurasian and Black-headed Penduline Tit exists. This population is sometimes given subspecies status as 'altaicus' and is sometimes placed under Black-headed Penduline Tit. In that case, it should be on the WP list indeed.However, giving the hybrid pupulation subspecies status is dubious, as it is to place it under Black-headed Penduline( S Bot pers comm.).But IOC considers altaicus ssp of BHPT, , so we included it in the WP-list indeed.There is clearly a lot of work to be done on the penduline tits in the Caspian region.
in Azerbeijan apparently a hybrid population between Eurasian and Black-headed Penduline Tit exists. This population is sometimes given subspecies status as 'altaicus' and is sometimes placed under Black-headed Penduline Tit. In that case, it should be on the WP list indeed.However, giving the hybrid pupulation subspecies status is dubious, as it is to place it under Black-headed Penduline( S Bot pers comm.).But IOC considers altaicus ssp of BHPT, , so we included it in the WP-list indeed.There is clearly a lot of work to be done on the penduline tits in the Caspian region.
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Richard Klim
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Black-headed Penduline Tit
Hybridisation between Remiz pendulinus menzbieri and R macronyx neglectus (ie, 'altaicus') in the south Caspian region is also discussed in Khaleghizadeh et al 2011 (Rare Birds in Iran in 1980−2010).
[Incidentally, Kirwan et al 2008 (Birds of Turkey) suggests that menzbieri is better treated as a synonym of nominate pendulinus.]
A potential alternative justification for including R macronyx on the WP list is the co-existence/hybridisation ('bostanjogli') of R p caspius and R m macronyx along the Ural River and in the Ural Delta in Kazakhstan as depicted in Bot & van Dijk 2009 (Black-headed Penduline Tits Remiz macronyx in Kazakhstan). See also Madge 2008 (HBW 13) and Wassink (the Birds of Kazakhstan).
Hybridisation between Remiz pendulinus menzbieri and R macronyx neglectus (ie, 'altaicus') in the south Caspian region is also discussed in Khaleghizadeh et al 2011 (Rare Birds in Iran in 1980−2010).
[Incidentally, Kirwan et al 2008 (Birds of Turkey) suggests that menzbieri is better treated as a synonym of nominate pendulinus.]
A potential alternative justification for including R macronyx on the WP list is the co-existence/hybridisation ('bostanjogli') of R p caspius and R m macronyx along the Ural River and in the Ural Delta in Kazakhstan as depicted in Bot & van Dijk 2009 (Black-headed Penduline Tits Remiz macronyx in Kazakhstan). See also Madge 2008 (HBW 13) and Wassink (the Birds of Kazakhstan).
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My understanding is that the birds on the island of Zannone have been there since the 1960s and that the population, however small, is entirely self-sustaining. Apparently there were other populations on the mainland in the 1960s as well, but they were hunted out.
magifrig
Well-known member
Ottavio, many thanks for the clarification on the Francolin.
Richard, I guess I will need to contact the Israeli RC to ask about chinensis, unless Marcel you have already tried this?
Black-headed Penduline Tit seems at least slightly doubtful. The few photos I have seen from Azerbaijan look like 'normal' Penduline Tits, though I realise there might be a lot more information I don't have; I suppose the key question remains whether or not there is a certain WP record of this taxon? It seems odd to include a bird without an actual record....
Enjoying the discussions though...
Best wishes, Graeme Joynt
Richard, I guess I will need to contact the Israeli RC to ask about chinensis, unless Marcel you have already tried this?
Black-headed Penduline Tit seems at least slightly doubtful. The few photos I have seen from Azerbaijan look like 'normal' Penduline Tits, though I realise there might be a lot more information I don't have; I suppose the key question remains whether or not there is a certain WP record of this taxon? It seems odd to include a bird without an actual record....
Enjoying the discussions though...
Best wishes, Graeme Joynt
I have to say that our previous EBN checklist of WP included Cat D and E as well, with surely some misplaced or mistaken taxa. After speaking with Marcel, we decided to include only Cat C in this version at the bottom of the list and not scattered through it. Pietro d ' Amelio wrote up Cat C list and he surely will be able to give the info you requested particularly for Chilean Flamingo and Yellow-headed Amazon (he works strictly with german Ornithological world,). It is possible some species in cat C like Daurian Partridge or Ruddy Duck that I thought it had not been accepted( I will ask for that) will have to be checked against solid evidence. Anyway I wish to thank Graeme Joynt for fueling an important discussion , thus sharing everything interesting regarding WP birds and contibuting to our knowledge improvement. Just take into consideration we follow IOC and as in the atypical case of Black-headed Penduline we had to include it (anyway we added a note).
I hope in the meantime someone can contact the Israeli RC.
I hope in the meantime someone can contact the Israeli RC.
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Thank you so much for the valuable suggestions!!
I want to answer about the cat C species. (Which I think is important to consider for many reasons
)
Chilean Flamingo and Yellow-headed Amazon are not in the german check list pubblished in Limicola in 2005 because they were not respecting one criterion: self sustaining population for at least 25 years. Now they do respect it...first breeding chilean 1982 and 1986 for the Amazon, that's why I felt they should be inserted.
(This is explained in a note, in Italian)
What do you think about it?
Ruddy ducks might be genuine but is not accepeted by Portugal, right?
The situation of the Daurian is simply lack of knowledge. I decided to insert it with the secret hope to get some info about it...in Ucraina went extint a long ago, but it Russia?? Anybody knows?
Thank you again for your comments and critiques!!!
Have fun
pietro
I want to answer about the cat C species. (Which I think is important to consider for many reasons
)Chilean Flamingo and Yellow-headed Amazon are not in the german check list pubblished in Limicola in 2005 because they were not respecting one criterion: self sustaining population for at least 25 years. Now they do respect it...first breeding chilean 1982 and 1986 for the Amazon, that's why I felt they should be inserted.
(This is explained in a note, in Italian)
What do you think about it?
Ruddy ducks might be genuine but is not accepeted by Portugal, right?
The situation of the Daurian is simply lack of knowledge. I decided to insert it with the secret hope to get some info about it...in Ucraina went extint a long ago, but it Russia?? Anybody knows?
Thank you again for your comments and critiques!!!
Have fun
pietro
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magifrig
Well-known member
Hi Pietro
About the Cat C species: Yellow-headed Amazon and Chilean Flamingo are not on the German list, see http://www.club300.de/
I understand that breeding for a certain number of years is not enough by itself; the species must also be officially added by the DO-G and they have not added these two.
Daurian Partridge does not seem to have a self-sustaining population in the WP, so I guess it should be removed unless there is clear evidence to the contrary?
Best wishes, Graeme Joynt
About the Cat C species: Yellow-headed Amazon and Chilean Flamingo are not on the German list, see http://www.club300.de/
I understand that breeding for a certain number of years is not enough by itself; the species must also be officially added by the DO-G and they have not added these two.
Daurian Partridge does not seem to have a self-sustaining population in the WP, so I guess it should be removed unless there is clear evidence to the contrary?
Best wishes, Graeme Joynt
May I say we have taken the liberty to create a more flexible list, at least for some taxa? Actually, our objective was also to provide some more updated info as an alternative to the conventional way of making a list. We were absolutely aware of what we were doing, but we chose to present a list including notes whose main purpose was to focus on the dynamics of some bird species too rather than creating a list with species phenology restricted by too stringent adynamia typical of some national Committees, often taking too long in updating their list (supposed we know the current situation.) I like this kind of list. A note is at the bottom of the list clarifying a species status or a taxonomic change. We did not insert Chilean Flamingo or Yellow-headed Amazon without any explanation, did we? Quite different is the case of Daurian Partridge. I take the point here. We cannot include a species relying only on our vibes. Daurian Partridge no longer survives in the wild in Ukraine, so any WP listing would depend entirely (as far as I know) on a self-sustaining population existing in Russia. But we don' t know for sure. So we have to delete it. This has been a big and hard work and it is far from being perfect, I know, but I hope people will admit our check has generated a very interesting and informative dialogue hoping this can bring to an active cooperation between us with regards to WP birds. This is the most important thing for me and for my colleagues.
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Ruddy Duck
With regards to Ruddy Duck sighting in Azores in 2009 I wrote to [email protected] without any success. Mr Gonçalo Elias suggested me to directly write to SPEA. I'm waiting for a reply. In the meantime I have not found any news regarding the Azorean Ruddy Ducks in the Portuguese Rarity Committee for 2009. (http://www.spea.pt/en/publications/ornithological-yearbook/volume-7/#)
Has anybody got any news of 'chinensis' taxon from Israeli RC?
Gianluigi
With regards to Ruddy Duck sighting in Azores in 2009 I wrote to [email protected] without any success. Mr Gonçalo Elias suggested me to directly write to SPEA. I'm waiting for a reply. In the meantime I have not found any news regarding the Azorean Ruddy Ducks in the Portuguese Rarity Committee for 2009. (http://www.spea.pt/en/publications/ornithological-yearbook/volume-7/#)
Has anybody got any news of 'chinensis' taxon from Israeli RC?
Gianluigi
Richard Klim
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Ruddy Duck
And the Birding Azores Database suggests that the 2009 record is not (yet) approved by CPR (= no asterisk).
Also no mention in the Portuguese Rarities Committee Report for 2010 (the most recently posted).
And the Birding Azores Database suggests that the 2009 record is not (yet) approved by CPR (= no asterisk).
magifrig
Well-known member
The Azores Ruddy Duck photos are here:
http://www.birdingazores.com/photoref.php?s_id=87&b_id=9002&stat=1
It arrived on Flores (the westernmost island) on 30th Oct and was relocated on Terceira the following day. By this time the UK population had been largely destroyed, with over 90% killed during the controversial cull of this species. This bird surely deserves to be treated as a wild individual?
I accept that the record may not have been published by the Portuguese RC, but maybe it was never submitted or considered? This committee has never really got to grips with the Azores, perhaps partly because of the volume of rare birds involved. Some (by no means all!) birders are also guilty and I include myself in that (I have not submitted the Philadelphia Vireo I found on Corvo last year - must get round to that!).
Anyway, it is one for you to consider - if you want to avoid the problem of some committees taking too long to make decisions, perhaps this is a good example to look at?
Also I hope to have news on the status of chinensis soon.....
Best wishes, Graeme Joynt
http://www.birdingazores.com/photoref.php?s_id=87&b_id=9002&stat=1
It arrived on Flores (the westernmost island) on 30th Oct and was relocated on Terceira the following day. By this time the UK population had been largely destroyed, with over 90% killed during the controversial cull of this species. This bird surely deserves to be treated as a wild individual?
I accept that the record may not have been published by the Portuguese RC, but maybe it was never submitted or considered? This committee has never really got to grips with the Azores, perhaps partly because of the volume of rare birds involved. Some (by no means all!) birders are also guilty and I include myself in that (I have not submitted the Philadelphia Vireo I found on Corvo last year - must get round to that!).
Anyway, it is one for you to consider - if you want to avoid the problem of some committees taking too long to make decisions, perhaps this is a good example to look at?
Also I hope to have news on the status of chinensis soon.....
Best wishes, Graeme Joynt
RafaelMatias
Unknown member
Hi Gianluigi,
sorry for the late reply, but I only got to know about this subject today (very busy times, I'm sorry).
The Ruddy Duck record (3 different submissions) is still circulating. A final decision is due to be published in the 2012 report. I sent you an email regarding this issue.
As Graeme Joynt says:
It is important that records are sent to the Portuguese Rarities Committee directly, as otherwise it is really easy that the information gets scattered all over birding journals without really being assessed by the PRC (not the case of the Ruddy Duck though).
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