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Climate denier recants (1 Viewer)

Apology accepted, but your rephrasing above is also inaccurate and insulting (but you don't need to make another apology ;)).



Like "accept global warming" this is a very vague phrase which bears little resemblance to sceptic concerns. Again, I urge the educated readers of BF who are interested in this topic to read 'the Hockey Stick Illusion'. If this was a £30 tome I would understand (and support) the reluctance, but we are talking about a paperback costing less than £10. And for those who now have the voice in their heads (familiar to me) "I'm buying into crackpot conspiracy theories", I will remind you of the endorsements of all of the scientists I listed on the other thread.

There is something else I would like to say here, directed towards readers who are reluctant to enter the blogosphere, where much of this debate is taking place. This is that endorsement of a blog and its author do not constitute an endorsement of all of the comments and commenters which may appear there. Finding what appears to be a 'crackpot' or 'conspiracy theory' comment under a post does not imply that the blog author is of that mind.

I wonder what "uneducated readers" - which seems to mean anyone who has a different view from 'Squonk' on .... well, I'm not not quite sure what term for global warming/climate change is acceptable here .... are supposed to do. Of course, I am sorry that my evidendently clumsy use of words and ".." was insufficiently careful guard against the charge of being insulting. It wasn't intentional and my apology was genuine. I evidently have as much as a talent for rubbing 'Squonk' up the wrong way as he has for doing likewise to me. Still, at least I attempted an apology and tried, unsuccessfully it seems, not to be insulting. I must do better next time.

With regard to the book 'The Hockey Stick Illusion' I gather the thesis explored therein is hotly disputed and itself subject of rebuttal. Certainly I doubt that the good professor, who is the subject of this thread, was unaware of it and did not take the views thus expressed into consideration.
 
Judith Curry has indeed been a co-author with Muller on previous papers, and has consistently argued a different interpretation on climate change issues for a long time. However, a number of her criticisms in recent years (easily found on the Web) have been re-examined by others in light of evidence documented since here original position. A number of scientists have posed questions about her conclusions as a consequence, and have offered to discuss ther concerns face to face or privately.

As always on this theme, issues have been clouded by personal feelings, mostly from people (on both sides of this specific debate) who lack expertise and background on the subject, but feel that their opinion, often on single points in a very complex subject, is as valid as the next person's, no matter how knowledgeable and informed that the next person might be. Shouting about a single point is very much an anti-science debate characteristic. It's notable that quite a long list of respected scientists in climatology and allied fields (eg physics, biological specialisations, mathematics) who initially were of the opinion that human-induced climate change was not a major factor have since changed their opinions. Quite a few hung on to their initial view by concentrating on one particular aspect, but the weight of evidence (in thousands of peer-reviewed papers) told.

Having read many papers over the years and having followed the debate as well, it seems to me that Judith Curry finds herself in this position of concentrating on those parts of the picture that are fuzziest, but assigning to them a major likelihood of these parts including major controlling factors that will explain why Anthropogenic Global Warming is a non-event. Now, she could be right, but mainstream scientific thinking is that the range of controlling factors already considered, their interactions (though imperfectly undersood) and the continuing avalanche of results across numerous scientific disciplines are providing results that are consistent enough to provide a framework of robust context. Judith Curry has so far declined to debate a number of aspects in her work (which at the time it was carried out, raised a number points that were worth further investigation).

It's the nature of science that conclusions must be tested, and if these conclusions remain robust after testing, time and time again, then these conclusions are probably the foundation of a sound theory (theory in the scientific sense, not as in the disparaging phrase, "It's only a theory"). I think that Judith Curry may now be in the position of trying to stick with her conclusions through thick and thin, an understandable and human reaction if you've spent years working on research. That frequently happens - even Richard Feynman spent some five years in what turned out to be a blind alley of mathematics before abandoning it and moving on to other things - he described the feeling as like being bereaved!

Until recently, Pielke (father and son) were touted on the Heartland Institute website as expert advisers. The Heartland Institute, which was strident and contemptuous of dozens of respected scientists, was funded in part secretly by pollluting industries, and has now been discredited and essentially has collapsed. Now both Pielkes have distanced themselves from the Heartland Institute and have esablished their own websites, one of which is cited above. However, note the heavy use of underlining in it, not something that occurs on any standard science-based website; note too, the hectoring tone, and thirdly note that a number of co-authors listed in the older papers have refused further cooperation with Pielke Sr since the Heartland fiasco.

Ross McKitrick has written often on climate change, and certainly is a sceptic. However, I'm sure he would never describe himself as a climate scientist. He is an economist with a background in mathematics and statistics, a professor at Guelph University. He has authored or co-authored several papers on the mathematical and statistical methodology in climate-related research, and so has a view that is worth respect. He disputes the views of others who disagree with him, but who work in the same general field. The methodology he attacks in the Muller paper has been supported elsewhere, but clarity on this particular aspect will takesome time to achieve. However, quoting him verbatim from a recent paper:
"So our conclusion is that a valid explanatory model of the pattern of climate change over land requires use of both socioeconomic indicators and GCM processes. The failure to include the socioeconomic factors in empirical work may be biasing analysis of the magnitude and causes of observed climate trends since 1979."
This suggests that there are other factors that might (or might not) influence mainstream climate change opinions. Most mainstream scientists I would guess are sceptical, not of that claim, but of its likely significant effect on the overall picture, but would support any re-examination of data to prove or disprove the point.

My present take on Squonk's cited references are that they may well have some value, but that whatever transpires from subsequent analysis of their content, little of significance will emerge. Muller, as a personality, is not a shy and retiring academic, but the vitriol from people with whom he has worked doesn't help.

I've met quite a few people whose research has produced data in this subject or who have worked in climatology. Their concern and worry lies squarely with the mounting evidence - because their children's future looks so bleak, they have scoured their field of expertise to try to find anything that the research results would indicate that AGW is not a real threat. If any such data are found, they would be the first to say so.

My concern lies with what the human race is doing to the bottom 3 miles (5000 metres) of the atmosphere. Above that level, few could survive for long, but it is what is happening in the upper levels that drives our survival prospects.
MJB

Its all political, control that's what it's always been about. The models predicted certain outcomes , unfortunately reality has been somewhat different. How hard do they look for data that would indicate AGW isn't real, not very hard I would think as their funding would go down the drain
 
May I suggest that by being insulting, albeit mildly so, about BFers who hold a different view is hardly going to win anyone over. By a wide margin the majority of climate scientists accept global warming as being a reality. Are you suggesting that they are all 'easily led' too?

Yes they are easily led , by the money. Why hasn't the planet warmed as the models predicted?
 
With regard to the book 'The Hockey Stick Illusion' I gather the thesis explored therein is hotly disputed and itself subject of rebuttal. Certainly I doubt that the good professor, who is the subject of this thread, was unaware of it and did not take the views thus expressed into consideration.

As has Michaels Manns original work
 
Its all political,

Should have known. It's all a plot by vested interests ( unlike the arguments put forward by those funded by oil companies etc. which have a wholly scientific detatchment to the results of studies. )

..control that's what it's always been about. The models predicted certain outcomes ....

... and when the outcomes don't conform, exactly, to preconceived ideas you can claim all other results opposing your views must be wrong. Welcome to the 'Bible Belt of Climatology'.

Chris
 
With regard to the book 'The Hockey Stick Illusion' I gather the thesis explored therein is hotly disputed and itself subject of rebuttal. Certainly I doubt that the good professor, who is the subject of this thread, was unaware of it and did not take the views thus expressed into consideration.

In answer to Squonk's plea, yes, I have read the book, and so I've gone in search of context, for indeed there are issues raised. Before I address them, I note that those working in climate science have criticised (in the sense of critiquing, not rubbishing) Muller's recent paper by stating that the causal links are less strongly supported than they might have been, but that they applaud his intellectual honesty (New Scientist Vol 215 No 2876 04 Aug 2012 page 4).

There have been several robust rebuttals of the content and conclusions drawn in 'The Hockey Stick Illusion', and they are not difficult to find on the Net. These, to me, provide sufficient contextual background to counter, or at least reduce considerably the implied weight of these issues.

A representative considered review (of some seven or eight I've looked at; I've seen quite a few others that are supportive of Montford, but none are couched in terms of reasoned debate [that's not to say that such reviews don't exist]; indeed, some are triumphalist and point-scoring, some are sneering about current science and scientists [eg suggesting that all scientists are slaves to the desperate hunt for grant support as an opening argument, which by any yardstick is a light-year from informed discussion of the issue or data]) is at http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/2010-montford-hockey-stick.htm.

A shortened extract: "Montford claims that 'the Medieval Warming Period was airbrushed out by cherry-picking and statistically steamrollering tree-ring data – one of the proxies used to reconstruct past planetary temperatures. Leaked East Anglia emails clinch the case. Bottom line: the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate has “proven itself to be corrupt, biased and beset by conflicts of interest…. There is no conceivable way that politicians can justify this failing to their electorates. They have no choice but to start again” (pp. 390-1)'.

But who is Montford, and what his sources? Andrew Montford, a chartered accountant with a BSc in chemistry from St Andrews University, is better known as the pseudonymous blogger, Bishop Hill - self-described as “the dissentient afflicted with the malady of thought.”

His book’s opening paragraph tells how he learned the intricacies of climate science by reading Climate Audit – the blog of Canadian mining consultant, Steve McIntyre. He relates: “While some of the statistics was (sic) over my head … I wondered if my newly-found understanding of the debate would enable me to take on … a public duty to make the story more widely known” (p. 13).

After posting a summary to the Bishop Hill blog; “my sleepy and relatively obscure website [turned] into a hive of activity, with thirty thousand hits being received over the following three days … saying nice things about what I had written [and] even an attempt to use my article as a source document for Wikipedia” (pp. 13-14).

But McIntyre’s attack on Mann is strongly contested. A study from the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution concluded that McIntyre had overplayed his hand. A German appraisal picked up “a glitch” but “found this glitch to be of very minor significance.” An investigation by the US National Academy of Sciences, according to a report in Nature, “essentially upholds Mann’s findings.” And a review this year by Mann’s own university exonerated him, not necessarily of all error (which is inevitable in fast-evolving scientific fields), but of “any wrongdoing”.

Even if Mann were guilty as charged by the climate change contrarians the hockey stick has been replicated by at least a dozen other studies. Above all, the MWP is probably a red herring. Its warming effect was probably more regional than global. A parallel would be our past winter which was exceptionally cold regionally in Europe, but globally the hottest that NASA has ever recorded.
"

Now of course a chartered accountant with a chemistry BSc does seem well-equipped to ask pertinent questions, but anyone without direct expertise in complex analytical techniques yet with well-honed skills elsewhere is a hostage to fortune dissenting strongly in fields that are far from his comfort zone; what expert colleagues did he approach for advice? The book is very much quite an exciting read, but it doesn't stand up to testing in context.

The conceptual difficulty lies elsewhere: the vast majority of normal and intelligent people talk, discuss and read only in narrative form. Science and mathematics are now at stages where their conclusions require a considerable depth of expertise just to explain - to anyone who has not ever been involved in such fields even at basic level, it might well be indistinguishable from magic (I paraphrase Arthur C Clark from the 1960s, I think.
MJB
 
Hi

I picked up the discussion of my book so I thought I might try to clarify a couple of things for readers here.

Alastair McIntosh's review is largely ad-hominem, inviting readers to ignore my book on grounds of who I am.

You often hear the argument that the US National Academy of Sciences supported the Hockey Stick. This position is discussed in my book (McIntosh doesn't mention this fact) and is hardly the case. The NAS agreed that Mann had used a biased algorithm that would produce hockey sticks from random data (red noise). They agreed that he had used inappropriate data. They then said that his results were still "plausible" because other subsequent studies had arrived at the same result.

The problem with this argument is that the other studies they referred to all used the same inappropriate data that Mann did (one used the same algorithm as well). I think that reasonable people can agree that this is unconvincing in the extreme.

As for the German study and the Woods Hole study these too are discussed in my book and again McIntosh doesn't mention this or address the case I make. Both these studies (they are comments rather than full papers) have been fully refuted in the published scientific literature. The German study was a computer model simulation which made untenable assumptions that made its findings invalid. The Woods Hole paper was equally problematic, although the problems are a bit complex for a comment on a forum. It's explained in the book.
 
I wonder what "uneducated readers" - which seems to mean anyone who has a different view from 'Squonk' on ....

No, that's not what I meant at all and I'm sorry that you read it that way. Initially I wrote that paragraph without the word 'educated', then started worrying that I might make people who have no interest in maths spend £10 on a book which contains a fair bit of it. I'm a nice chap you see ;)

MJB, if you've read the book, I'm not sure why you're still quoting reviews of it that don't address any of the substantive issues raised in it (and you concede that there are issues).

Andrew, welcome to BirdForum, had no idea you were interested!
 
I have to applaud MJB's balanced and clear-headed posts. As a (former) paleoclimatologist I continue to be bemused by the whole societal debate in face of overwhelming scientific evidence. The sad truth is that this has led most researchers in the field to be tired of the argument, disillusioned with the 'deniers' (giving that term it's negative connotation, which precludes proper debate of sometimes valid counter-arguments) and just not bothered anymore to explain the whole topic to the general public. This is a poor state to be in, but I hope most people will cut the scientists some slack in this sisyphean task.

N
 
I have to applaud MJB's balanced and clear-headed posts. As a (former) paleoclimatologist I continue to be bemused by the whole societal debate in face of overwhelming scientific evidence. The sad truth is that this has led most researchers in the field to be tired of the argument, disillusioned with the 'deniers' (giving that term it's negative connotation, which precludes proper debate of sometimes valid counter-arguments) and just not bothered anymore to explain the whole topic to the general public. This is a poor state to be in, but I hope most people will cut the scientists some slack in this sisyphean task.

N

No mention of 'the Hockey Stick Illusion' there, and I again remind readers of the endorsements of this book by the scientists I listed on the other thread.
 
Andrew,
Thank you for coming on to Bird Forum. I would welcome the references of the NAS statements on inappropriate data and "plausibility" (your quotation marks), and also those that fully refute the German and Woods Hole studies in the scientific literature.

I must admit that I didn't read the McIntosh review as ad hominem simply because he invited readers to make up their own minds and encouraged them to examine matter more broadly than just his writings.

May I ask if you are concerned about the strident, abusive and aggressive tone taken by so many in the responses he received? Rational debate is so often ditched at the first hurdle. For example, the Attorney General of Virginia leapt into the issue in a way it is difficult to think was noble in its purpose:

"Climate science is under scrutiny once again, this time over a modest half-a-million dollars — the collective sum of five federal and state grants being investigated by Kenneth Cuccinelli, a firebrand conservative who was elected late last year as attorney general of Virginia. The grants had multiple recipients, but the official target of the probe is Michael Mann, an internationally respected climate scientist who was an investigator on all five grants while working at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville between 1999 and 2005.

On 23 April, Cuccinelli filed what amounts to a subpoena ordering the University of Virginia to hand over, by 26 July, all available documents, computer code and data relating to Mann's research on the five grants. He also demanded all correspondence, including e-mails — from 1999 to the present — between Mann, now at Pennsylvania State University in University Park, and dozens of climate scientists worldwide, as well as some climate sceptics. The order stated that Cuccinelli was investigating Mann's possible violation of the 2002 Virginia Fraud Against Taxpayers Act — although no evidence of wrongdoing was given to explain invoking the law, which is intended to prosecute individuals who make false claims in order to access government funds.

Mann is the co-author of the famous 'hockey stick' graph, which shows estimated global temperatures over the last millennium to have been relatively constant until a drastic rise in the twentieth century. Mann has long been a target of climate-change deniers, and the scrutiny intensified last autumn when his e-mails were among those stolen from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia, UK. But Mann's research has been upheld by the US National Academy of Sciences, and an investigation by Pennsylvania State University into the e-mails also cleared Mann of any misconduct. Given the lack of any evidence of wrongdoing, it's hard to see Cuccinelli's subpoena — and similar threats of legal action against climate scientists in a February report by climate-change denier Senator James Inhofe (Republican, Oklahoma) — as anything more than an idealogically motivated inquisition that harasses and intimidates climate scientists.

Certainly Cuccinelli has lost no time in burnishing his credentials with far-right 'Tea Party' activists, many of whom hail him as a hero. In March, he instructed Virginia's state university presidents that they had no legal authority to protect homosexuals under their non-discrimination policies. He has also filed lawsuits challenging health-care reform and the Environmental Protection Agency's authority to issue greenhouse-gas regulations.

Cuccinelli's actions against Mann hark back to an era when tobacco companies smeared researchers as part of a sophisticated public relations strategy to raise doubts over the science showing that tobacco caused cancer, and delayed the introduction of smoking curbs for decades. Researchers found themselves bogged down in responding to subpoenas and legal challenges, which deterred others from the field. Climate-change deniers have adopted similar strategies with alacrity and, unfortunately, considerable success.

Cuccinelli has insisted that he is not “targeting scientific conclusions”. But even several climate sceptics who count themselves among Mann's fiercest critics have publicly condemned the attorney general's move. Thankfully, so have many academic bodies. One of them was the University of Virginia's faculty senate, which on 5 May declared that Cuccinelli's “action and the potential threat of legal prosecution of scientific endeavor that has satisfied peer-review standards send a chilling message to scientists engaged in basic research involving Earth's climate and indeed to scholars in any discipline.”

Well said. Scientific organizations must respond quickly and forcefully any time political machinations threaten to undercut academic freedom. And, rather than complying, the University of Virginia should explore every avenue to challenge the subpoena.
"

I would very much like to see all the arguments you deploy in your book debated at an open forum, but I fear that it would be hijacked by those with political (small 'p') and Political (large P) agendas.

I also note the following about death threats: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/mar/03/michael-mann-climate-change-deniers. I would welcome your views on this troubling aspect.

I certainly haven't seen all the reviews of your book in the scientific press, but do you feel it was fairly reviewed?
MJB
 
No mention of 'the Hockey Stick Illusion' there, and I again remind readers of the endorsements of this book by the scientists I listed on the other thread.

I've invited Andrew Montfort to comment on some issues, and doubtless he will elaborate further on the points in his book, but in response to your mention of those that endorsed his book, in turn, I would ask if you've read through the entire Andrew McIntosh review and supplementary comments, and then clicked on all his cited references? here it is again: http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/arti...ckey-stick.htm.
MJBo:D
 
I've invited Andrew Montfort to comment on some issues, and doubtless he will elaborate further on the points in his book, but in response to your mention of those that endorsed his book, in turn, I would ask if you've read through the entire Andrew McIntosh review and supplementary comments, and then clicked on all his cited references? here it is again: http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/arti...ckey-stick.htm.
MJBo:D

Problem with the link?
 
Assuming this is the correct link:
http://www.alastairmcintosh.com/articles/2010-montford-hockey-stick.htm
I am familiar with some of the references, not all. Some look like ad hominem attacks, some appear to rehash points already dealt with in the book (like the points made in the body of McIntosh's review, as explained by Andrew above), some may be valid. It is because there is genuine scientific disagreement here that I urge people to read both sides, and to avoid using terms like 'denier'.
 
P.S. I hope to do my disappearing act again soon, but in the spirit of reconciliation, to John Cantelo: I have enjoyed the vast majority of your posts over the years, you have contributed far more to BirdForum than I ever have or will, and so I am sorry if my initial choice of words has made you feel in any way uncomfortable on here.
 
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No mention of 'the Hockey Stick Illusion' there, and I again remind readers of the endorsements of this book by the scientists I listed on the other thread.

No, because the debated hockey stick graph is just one small piece of evidence - there's literaly dozens of other indicators of a substantial and ongoing climate shift occurring, with anthropogenic greenhouse gas emisions being the most likely cause. To give just one example, look at ocean acidification.
As always in this "debate" it's necessary to take in all observations that together make up the big picture. Whether the tree-ring based hockey stick graph was exagerated becomes pretty irrelevant.

N
 
No, because the debated hockey stick graph is just one small piece of evidence

I agree; I think the feedbacks question is more important, and there is scientific disagreement over that too. But the HSI is also about the scientific process, and how some pieces of evidence make into the literature, while others do not; and that is relevant to areas outside the hockey stick debate.
 
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