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Do higher scope magnifications make any sense? (2 Viewers)

Tringa45

Well-known member
Europe
By "higher" I mean magnifications with a numerical value greater than half the objective diameter in millimetres.
This concept is such a radical departure from accepted thought that I have my own doubts and would appreciate some qualified comments.

I was out birding with a friend yesterday and recounted the resolution measurements (Resolution measurement 8x56 SLC) I had conducted lately. In view of the tiny angles (1 arcsecond is 1/3600th of 1 degree) involved, the friend asked if low arcsecond values for binoculars were of any relevance to what we see through them.

At 2,9" for the 8x56 SLC this is probably not the case but many good binoculars with smaller objectives might only resolve 4-5" and if they had 10x magnification the perceived acuity at 40-50" would be getting very close to the abilities of a user with 20/20 vision. The latter is defined as 1 arcminute (60").
I then realized that the scope I was carrying, a Swarovski ATM65 HD with its moderate magnification (30x W) gets even closer to the visual capabilities of most users. With a measured resolution of 1,78" this corresponds to perceived acuity of 53".

The Dawes' limit defines the theoretical maximum resolutiom of an optical device and is 116 divided by the diameter of the objective in millimetres, hence 1,78" for my (diffraction limited) 65 mm scope, 2.32" for a 50 mm scope or 1" for a 115 mm scope.
Consequently, for users with 20/20 vision, magnifications of much over half the objective diameter in millimetres could be considered empty magnification. Users with a poorer VA would of course profit from higher magnifications, but someone with very high VA might be able to detect the limits of a diffraction-limited scope at said magnification on a well illuminated and high contrast target such as a test chart.

At somewhat advanced age my visus has deteriorated to abot 0,9 but in the field I have often experienced that there were no gains at magnifications above 50x on my Kowa 883 (also a good example). This I had attributed to seeing conditions or the inevitable loss of brightness (and contrast) at exit pupils below 2 mm. At 50x the Kowa has a 1,8 mm exit pupil, but perhaps I was seeing the limits of the scope?

Unrelated to the above are factors concerning the human eye. In a Wikipedia article it is suggested that the eye's maximum acuity is at pupil openings of 3-4 mm and that, at pupil dimensions below 2 mm, acuity is degraded by diffraction effects. A 2mm exit pupil also corresponds to a magnification of half the objective diameter.

Unfortuately there is now a dearth of fixed focal length wide-angle eyepieces, so we are left with the restricted AFoVs of zoom oculars at the lower magnifications and mostly useless magnifications at the higher end.
Numbers sell and the cheap offers of 70x50 binoculars on a certain auction site are often rightly ridiculed on BF, but is there really any point in 45x magnification on a 50 mm scope, or 60x on a 65 mm, let alone the ridiculous magnifications that can be achieved with the current crop of extenders?

John
 
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I can't talk about optical theory, just practical usage. I use a Nikon ED50 with x27 eyepiece as my main scope. I regularly bird with people using full-size top end scopes, and it seems to me that even in very clear air on a calm day, the real world advantages of the bigger scopes are quite small in good light. By this, I mean being able to locate and identify distant birds.
When you throw-in wind, which causes vibration and eye-watering, and heat haze, I think the difference is reduced even further, sometimes to the point of irrelevance. I've reached the conclusion that rock solid support is more important than relatively minor optical differences.
 
Bird watching seems to be quite different to other viewing.

Empty magnification as far as I am concerned happens at much higher magnifications, either terrestrially or for astro.

I think the magnifications used by bird watchers is more to do with the real field size than magnification.

It also depends on weather conditions and the fact that bird watchers are looking close to the ground rather than from higher elevations for both observer and target.

Bird watchers observe in conditions that are so poor I would not even bother to set up a telescope.

Regards,
B.
 
I agree that in terrestrial observations an exit pupil of 2mm can be seen as a "sensible limit", not just because with smaller exit pupils you get close to the diffraction limit and thus "empty magnification", but also because smaller exit pupils are not all that "comfortable", especially not for extended observations. However, I think you can get more detail if you go higher in magnfication than that if the conditions are right.

I've got somewhat better than 20/20 vision when wearing my glasses. I find I benefit from higher magnifications, that is I get more details on a bird, provided the following conditions are met:
  • the atmospherical conditions allow the use of high magnifications, i.e. there's no heat haze and so on,
  • and the scope is on a rock solid tripod, and
  • the scope is well corrected, i.e. it's not a lemon.
The maximum magnifications that work for me are magnifications with a numerical value that equals the objective diameter in millimetres, for example 60x with a 60mm scope, i.e. a 1mm exit pupil of the scope. In very rare cases I may get a bit more detail at even higher magnifications. However, I find with exit pupils <1mm scopes become increasingly difficult to use, for instance because floaters become more and more visible. I use them very rarely.

These observations agree quite well with Albert König's and Horst Köhler's (Die Fernrohre und Entfernungsmesser, ³1959, p. 101f) explanations:

"Wenn also ein Fernrohr eine Vergrößerung hat, daß sich eine Austrittspupille von 2mm ergibt, dann entspricht die Beugungsunschärfe gerade eben dem Auflösungsvermögen der Netzhaut. Man sagt, ein solches Fernrohr besitzt die "förderliche Vergrößerung". Es ist in vielen Fällen angebracht, die Vergrößerung weiter zu steigern, etwa so, daß die Winkeldistanz zweier getrennter Objekte etwa dem doppelten Auflösungsvermögen des Auges entspricht. Man wendet also die doppelte förderliche Vergrößerung an und erhält eine Austrittspupille mit einem Durchmesser von 1mm."

König/Köhler got on to explain even higher magnifications are possible, but of doubtful value:

"Man kann das allenfalls noch bis zur 4fachen förderlichen Vergrößerung, d.h. bis zu einer Austrittspupille von 0,5mm Durchmesser treiben, man muss sich aber darüber im klaren sein, daß diese Steigerung bestenfalls der Bequemlichkeit des Beobachters, keineswegs aber einer weiteren Erkennbarkeit von Einzelheiten dient."

I'd quite like to know what Henry and Kimmo think about this subject ... :)

Hermann
 
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I'd quite like to know what Henry and Kimmo think about this subject ... :)
That was my hope too, as I know that both use higher magnifications from time to time.
Thanks too for the quotes from König/Köhler, which show that my thinking was not completely up the creek. :)
Higher magnifications are definitely a question of diminishing returns, but having little understanding of the physiological aspects, I wouldn't know where the lines cross.
Birding scopes I think offer three overlapping abilities: making long distance IDs, finding distant birds one would otherwise overlook with binoculars, and lastly aesthetically pleasing close-up views the likes of which one would probably only see with binoculars at the feeder.
Without the last aspect I don't think I'd bother.

John
 
In practical use I think it depends on the subject and the size of the details you need to observe to make an i.d on it. If your looking for differences in plumage that are of a size that you can observe enough detail of to make an i.d even if in absolute terms the minutiae of the detail is beyond your visual acuity it may be worth the extra magnification as those details will be bigger even if they are to a degree more blurry.

Will
 
In practical use I think it depends on the subject and the size of the details you need to observe to make an i.d on it. If your looking for differences in plumage that are of a size that you can observe enough detail of to make an i.d even if in absolute terms the minutiae of the detail is beyond your visual acuity it may be worth the extra magnification as those details will be bigger even if they are to a degree more blurry.

Will

It's a good point - if you're aim is identification it doesn't always matter if details are perfectly resolved, they only need to be clear enough.
 
Hi John,

Since you have a USAF 1951 glass slide you should try to see whether you can resolve smaller line pairs at 60x compared to 30x through your scope under ideal controlled conditions.. Certainly a 1.78" line pair would be very tough to visually resolve on the USAF 1951 at 30x.

I think an old familiar point of confusion about how eyesight acuity is converted to arc seconds from an eye chart vs how telescope resolution is converted to arc seconds from a similar resolution chart needs to be cleared up. The Snellen tumbling "E" eye chart looks very similar to the USAF 1951 Test Pattern (squares made of 5 alternating black and white bars), but 20/20 eyesight acuity on the tumbling E chart is based on one arc minute equaling the width of one of the bars (one line) forming the Es on the 20/20 line. The USAF 1951 has the same squares divided into 5 bars (lines), but its resolution in arc seconds is based on line pairs, not single lines, so the value of the same sized bars in arc seconds is doubled. 20/20 acuity becomes two arc minutes on the USAF chart for purposes of comparison to telescope resolution.

If we use 120" as the acuity of a person with 20/20 eyesight, then simply divide that by the 1.78" resolution of your 65 mm scope the result would be a minimum of 67x for that person to see the full resolution of the scope, pretty close to Hermann's figure.

Henry
 
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Hi John,

Since you have a USAF 1951 glass slide you should try to see whether you can resolve smaller line pairs at 60x compared to 30x through your scope under ideal controlled conditions.. Certainly a 1.78" line pair would be very tough to visually resolve on the USAF 1951 at 30x.

I think an old familiar point of confusion about how eyesight acuity is converted to arc seconds from an eye chart vs how telescope resolution is converted to arc seconds from a similar resolution chart needs to be cleared up. The Snellen tumbling "E" eye chart looks very similar to the USAF 1951 Test Pattern (squares made of 5 alternating black and white bars), but 20/20 eyesight acuity on the tumbling E chart is based on one arc minute equaling the width of one of the bars (one line) forming the Es on the 20/20 line. The USAF 1951 has the same squares divided into 5 bars (lines), but its resolution in arc seconds is based on line pairs, not single lines, so the value of the same sized bars in arc seconds is doubled. 20/20 acuity becomes two arc minutes on the USAF chart for purposes of comparison to telescope resolution.

If we use 120" as the acuity of a person with 20/20 eyesight, then simply divide that by the 1.78" resolution of your 65 mm scope the result would be a minimum of 67x for that person to see the full resolution of the scope, pretty close to Hermann's figure.

Henry
Thanks for the clarification, Henry. Egg on my face!
Perhaps I should have done some tests before jumping the gun, but outdoor tests with scopes require some effort in that diffuse illumination of the slide has to be provided.
I did however conduct some rudimentary tests today and viewed a car license plate at 66 m from an elevated position in bright sunlight. German plates have a city or district seal with 3 mm capital lettering in a rather fine font. The car was from a district unknown to me - REMS-MURR-KREIS.
With the standard 30x eyepiece on my 65 mm scope I could read nothing and at 42x with an 11 mm Plössl I was guessing.
A 7,5 mm Eudiascopic at 61x enabled me to read the text, although at 1 mm exit pupil, eye placement was very critical.
There was a loss of contrast with a 6 mm Vixen NLV and here floaters began to cause problems.
Not surprisingly I have to concede that Hermann is right, along with König and Köhler :), that the objective diameter in millimetres is a sensible upper limit for terrestrial magnification.
The only caveat is of course illumination. A little later, with the sun still near its zenith, the car was in shadow and I could no longer read the text at 61x in the 65 mm scope. This was no problem however at 60x in my Kowa 883 with a 1,5 mm exit pupil.

John
 
Fascinating discussion, and apposite for me, as I am considering whether to move on from my beloved 1986-vintage Kowa TSN-3 Prominar, with its 77mm pure fluorite objective and 30x WIDE eyepiece.

I'm planning to visit one of my dealers over the next few days, to do some side-by-side tests between my Kowa and a Swaro ATX (not sure which size objective module they have on demo, hopefully one of the larger ones, eg 95mm). I'll take some fine test targets with me, to pin up at the far end of their car park, and see whether the newer (and expensive) ATX can resolve over and above my TSN-3 - or not!

Thanks, John, for pointing me to this thread!
 
I'm planning to visit one of my dealers over the next few days, to do some side-by-side tests between my Kowa and a Swaro ATX (not sure which size objective module they have on demo, hopefully one of the larger ones, eg 95mm). I'll take some fine test targets with me, to pin up at the far end of their car park, and see whether the newer (and expensive) ATX can resolve over and above my TSN-3 - or not!
Do make sure you check the quality of the Swaro ATX first. Not all scopes are equal, and even though Swarovski seems to have fewer problems than some other manufacturers, you may come across a scope that isn't quite up to scratch. In an ideal world you might want to do a star test (there are plenty of postings on this forum on how to do that), but even if that's not possible at the very least try to check if the scope you're interested in is pin sharp at the highest magnification. Zoom up and check if the sharpness changes.

And do that before you compare the scope to your TSN-3 to make sure the initial focus is on the Swaro.

Hermann
 
Do make sure you check the quality of the Swaro ATX first. Not all scopes are equal, and even though Swarovski seems to have fewer problems than some other manufacturers, you may come across a scope that isn't quite up to scratch. In an ideal world you might want to do a star test (there are plenty of postings on this forum on how to do that), but even if that's not possible at the very least try to check if the scope you're interested in is pin sharp at the highest magnification. Zoom up and check if the sharpness changes.

And do that before you compare the scope to your TSN-3 to make sure the initial focus is on the Swaro.

Hermann
Thanks for the advice, Hermann.

I have been actively thinking about the best targets to use for testing any new scope against my TSN-3. Simply gawping across a car-park on a sunny day will get nowhere close to being a decent test. I'm actually wondering about hiring an ATX for a weekend, if I can find someone who will rent it to me, so I can do a mix of daytime and dawn/dusk terrestrial comparisons, and (weather permitting) some night-time moon and planet-gazing.
 
Hi,

I like my TSN-3 with the SDLv2 very much at its maximum magnification of 54x (or 1,4mm exit pupil) and seldom zoom out when light is failing or with bad seeing. Due to the cable tie trick, I can usually point the scope right on some bird that I found with the bins, so no need to zoom in and out.
At 60x with the current Kowa 20-60 zoom it also was nice, but the SDLv2 has a wider afov so it stayed...
I also did some ghetto adaption of an Opticron 40861 EP with a lot of duct tape resulting in sth close to 100x - in very bright light it was also quite usable but the narrow afov, difficult aiming and focusing due to lack of stability at that magnification make that less interesting. Might be revisited when doing seawatch on a bright summer day...

And yes, my TSN-3 and SDLv2 combo has stood in a long line of $$$$ scopes on some birdwalks and I was frequently asked what great scope I had in that stac-on-case... so a good example of TSN-3 can still deliver...

Joachim
 
There is little point in renting a scope, unless that particular scope can be bought if it turns out to be very good.

Sample variation in binoculars, spotting scopes and astro scopes means that they can vary a lot from poor to good to excellent to superb.

When buying optics I would make sure that I bought the one that tested the best.

I usually tested 3, 6 or 12 identical optics if enough were available.

If one already has an excellent scope, there is little reason to buy a newer one just because it is new.

It never ceases to amaze me how users sell superb examples that they have for something newer and worse.

Regards,
B.
 
There is little point in renting a scope, unless that particular scope can be bought if it turns out to be very good.

Sample variation in binoculars, spotting scopes and astro scopes means that they can vary a lot from poor to good to excellent to superb.

When buying optics I would make sure that I bought the one that tested the best.

I usually tested 3, 6 or 12 identical optics if enough were available.

If one already has an excellent scope, there is little reason to buy a newer one just because it is new.

It never ceases to amaze me how users sell superb examples that they have for something newer and worse.

Regards,
B.
Very fair points. But let's look at it from another angle:

Suppose I just want to find out whether, in principle, a 2023-manufactured scope gives (say) more light, wide field of view, better digiscoping options, etc., compared to my 1986-manufactured scope, that I could do with any example of (say) an ATX-95.

However, I agree that before I parted with several thousand bucks, I would want to be certain that the one I got was the best, our of at least several available examples.

The same goes for musical instruments - when I bought my Tam-Tam (a large, hand-made Chinese orchestral gong) many years ago, I spent about 4 hours trying out some 30 or so, eliminating the "sour" sounding ones one after another, before finally settling for one, which was superb. Except I took that back a couple of days later, and tried some more, and swapped it! :)

That one, I still have, also about 40 years on, and have NO intention ever of parting with!

Regards,

Brian
 
The trouble with some of the top scopes is that you have to open several different boxes containing bits and pieces and put them together before you can start testing anything. Not many shops are willing and patient enough to help a customer assemble and try one scope, let alone several.
 
is there really any point in 45x magnification on a 50 mm scope, or 60x on a 65 mm, let alone the ridiculous magnifications that can be achieved with the current crop of extenders?
We've regularly used a 5mm eyepiece on our 82mm S2 giving 88x with ~0.8mm exit pupil, and find that quite comfortable and useful in good conditions. Lately out of curiosity I've tried 3.5mm (126x, 0.5mm) which is still surprisingly usable here in good enough conditions, especially across lakes where we most often want it. Eye positioning becomes finicky with so small an EP, and focusing due to lack of fine focus, yet brightness/contrast still seem adequate even in less than full sunlight. So magnification ~1.5x objective diameter still seems useful. I'd like to hear what others have found.

I haven't done resolution tests, but subjectively for what it's worth, even at 126x the daylight view feels normally detailed rather than exhibiting obviously "empty magnification", as often seems the case here when viewing planets.
 
And yes, my TSN-3 and SDLv2 combo has stood in a long line of $$$$ scopes on some birdwalks and I was frequently asked what great scope I had in that stac-on-case... so a good example of TSN-3 can still deliver...
You can say that again. Good samples of the TSN-3 and the TSN-4 are definitely still competitive - and they are a heck of a lot lighter than many "modern" scopes. A lighter scope means a lighter tripod ...

My own scopes (ED50, EDIIIA and ED82) are pretty old as well. These are well tried scopes, with excellent star tests. The only reason I want to switch some day is that I'm wearing glasses now, after 40 years with contact lenses. And unfortunately the Nikon zoom eyepieces haven't got enough ER. At the moment I make do with using fixed wideangles, but in the long run I want zoom eyepieces that work with my glasses (and have a wider AFOV).

But: With the ED82 I can get up to 75x magnification with the zoom eyepiece, and I use 75x quite regularly. Most modern scopes have zooms that don't allow for such high magnifications. If you want to use higher magnifications - and one of several reasons for getting such a big scope are the high magnifications they can be used at - you have to buy an extender. Now, that's pretty nice, if only for the manufacturers. Most manufacturers don't offer an adapter that would allow you to use astronomical eyepieces. No, that would allow the customer some choice, but who wants that? Looks to me as though the manufacturers learned a lot from Apple ... :sneaky:

Hermann
 
Not many shops are willing and patient enough to help a customer assemble and try one scope, let alone several.
Well, if a shop isn't even prepared to set up one scope for a potential customer, I would take my business elsewhere. Simple as that.

Hermann
 
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