End of the road for grouse shooting? (1 Viewer)

[Touty]

I would second that!

Forest, especially forest-meadow mosaic has bigger biodiversity. This is why moors look bleak!

I don't think Red Grouse would become extinct if moors were less managed. They would be less numerous but still not endangered. Why consider today's number of Red Grouse more appropriate? It is just result of economy, timber cutting, wool trade, hunting, which promoted Grouse over other birds.

This is B.S. What gives UK its biodiversity (and the rest of Europe for that matter) is the wide variety of of land uses (and geology) in a relatively small area. What do you imagine the land-owners would do with 3,000,000 acres of land they can't make money from grouse from? Sheep - millions of them (visit Wales), conifer plantations (visit Wales) and peat extraction (visit Poland).

Forest - meadow mosaic has a higher biodiversity than moorland but it isn't a natural component of the Scottish uplands - so that's out. I'd (personally) be happy if half the Scottish moors were helped to revert to Caledonian pine forest (which they were from the end of the Ice Age 'til about 500 years ago.

Nobody (except the shooters) are really worried just about Red Grouse. The moors hold most of Britain's breeding waders, ring ouzels, twites, hen harriers, merlins etc. not to mention other arctic-alpine flora and fauna not found elsewhere in the UK. Sheep pasture, conifer plantations or Caledonian forest would not support any of these species.

 

[Big Phil]

Nobody (except the shooters) are really worried just about Red Grouse. The moors hold most of Britain's breeding waders, ring ouzels, twites, hen harriers, merlins etc. not to mention other arctic-alpine flora and fauna not found elsewhere in the UK. Sheep pasture, conifer plantations or Caledonian forest would not support any of these species.

Are most of Britains waders really breeding on Grouse Moors?. I seriously doubt this.

Arctic-alpine flora?. Surely this is above the heather line in areas that hold Ptarmigan rather then Red Grouse?.

 

[Touty]

Are most of Britains waders really breeding on Grouse Moors?. I seriously doubt this.

Arctic-alpine flora?. Surely this is above the heather line in areas that hold Ptarmigan rather then Red Grouse?.

Grouse moors are the main sites for Golden Plover, Snipe and Dunlin. Numbers for Curlew and Lapwing are also very high. Many areas (such as the machair in the Outer Hebs and the bogs in Sutherland hold high densities of waders but they can't put the 3,000,000 acres on the table that grouse moors do. Machair covers just 30,000 acres (1%)..... and it's full of hedgehogs now. Predator control on the moors seems also to raise the importance of these sites over and above unmanaged sites nearby. Will tiredly drag out the refs. if asked to. Game Conservancy have done a lot of research on this, though I realise some people migh question their impartiality.

Heather moor is an artificial construct (it should be pine forest or birchwood if succession is allowed to occur). Living at the foot of the Alps I probably have a broader definition of Arctic-Alpine flora than you do. It's just about all the local species that I can't get to grow in my garden (at 200m a.s.l). Most of the species on moorland originate from close to or above the tree-line or other places that trees cannot grow such as bogs, including heather, bog myrtle, bilberry and so forth. They take advantage of the large gaps that occur between trees as climatic conditions deteriorate (wetter and/or colder). Man (sorry, humans and their animals) created the new space and the species from the tops and the bogs filled the gaps to create a unique human- (fire-) maintained climax. When you talk about the artic-alpine flora you're probably restricting yourself to the true relicts that haven't budged off the 1200m+ tops such as Diapensia lapponica (a sort of artic teasel).

 

[Big Phil]

Thanks for that, Touty!.

So we are talking a huge expanse of not exceptionally productive wader habitat?. Is that not a bit like saying that most of England's Skylarks live in monoculture cereal production areas....it might be true if you add them all up, but is it a good thing?.

As regards your previous statement can you back up your claim that most Twite are found on Grouse Moors?. Personally I find this species at its commonest out west away from kept moors, and scarce on well keepered Eastern moors.

You also mention Hen Harriers. I may be wrong, but doesn't the isle of Man have a healthy population of these yet no Grouse Moors?.

Would it be fair to say you are a long way from impartial on this?.

Will tiredly drag out the refs. if asked to.

Why tiredly, btw?. If you make an aggressive statement in public, be prepared to back it up with the facts!.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Capercaillie71]

Otherwise, unmanaged moorland will basically turn into rank, overgrown heather.

I was maybe not entirely right to make this statement. In fact a reasonable proportion of 'grouse moor' in eastern Scotland (and presumably elsewhere), particularly above about 450m, is in fact blanket bog, growing on a thick layer of peat. This is to all intents and purposes a self-sustaining vegetation type and doesn't really need any management to be maintained as moorland. It is only the heather growing on mineral soils that should 'naturally' be wooded and which require human management to be retained as a valuable habitat.

I guess it all depends on what your preferred balance is - I would quite happily see large tracts of heather moorland returned to native woodland, but I would also like to see substantial areas maintained as well. The big question is - who would pay for the required management? At present, moorland owners seem happy to pour large amounts of cash into grouse management, but I doubt if they would want to spend their money on pure conservation.

 

[Touty]

So we are talking a huge expanse of not exceptionally productive wader habitat?. Is that not a bit like saying that most of England's Skylarks live in monoculture cereal production areas....it might be true if you add them all up, but is it a good thing?.

If you add them up, heather moorland has far more biodiversity than cereal monoculture and is, without any shadow of a doubt "a good thing" in terms of wildlife, landscape and human community conservation. And waders

As regards your previous statement can you back up your claim that most Twite are found on Grouse Moors?. Personally I find this species at its commonest out west away from kept moors, and scarce on well keepered Eastern moors.

"The New Atlas of Breeding Birds" p. 418: "The Twite is most abundant in the coastal areas of low intensity agriculture and the grouse moors of the S. Penines." (The Golden Plover map on p. 168 shows the highest densities on the Penine moors, north and south as well.)

Would it be fair to say you are a long way from impartial on this?

Phil

How can anyone be impartial on this. It's a no-brainer frankly. I'm not a shooter, or a friend of shooting. I'm a wildlife biologist and ornithologist. I'm interested in wildlife and landscape conservation and especially the economics neccessary for the conservation of the human communities that maintain the landscapes and biodiversity which some people on this thread would send down the tubes for the sake of animal rights or to strike a blow in a phoney class war.

Why tiredly, btw?. If you make an aggressive statement in public, be prepared to back it up with the facts!.

Tiredly because I was up at 4am doing survey work that started at 5:30 and because the refs. are not here at home. Tiredly as well because of the tendentious nature of a lot the interventions on threads such as this one.

The Manx HHs are using a lot of ex-grouse moor. We'll see how long they last when foxes get going on the island. 55% of Scottish HHs are on grouse moor and a similar proportion in England.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bto/bird/2001/00000048/00000003/483341

Like the Manx Red Grouse, Irish grouse shooting is pretty well no more but the pairs I saw in Iorthern Ireland were on ex-moors and peat-bog.

I see you're from the Silver City Phil. I attach, without comment, a gem of a cutting someone sent me.

 

[Touty]

At present, moorland owners seem happy to pour large amounts of cash into grouse management, but I doubt if they would want to spend their money on pure conservation.

They would not. In the absence of grouse they'll put in land drains and convert it to sheep-walk or conifer plantations and the decomposing peat could release as many greenhouse gases as the UK releases from cars and industry, probably. ;-) ... so I don't have to go and look for the ref.

 

[Big Phil]

If you add them up, heather moorland has far more biodiversity than cereal monoculture.....

Cheers for the reply Touty. I see your pov, but it is far from a 'no brainer', I spend a lot of time on foot in 'Grouse Country' and have long been dismayed by the lack of variety of wildlife on many of the moors. Yes there are cumalatively a lot of birds on the vast area of moors, but they are generally pretty thin on the ground. Personally I see the decline of grouse shooting as an opportunity to introduce more variety in our countryside. Yes I may be naive about the economics of this, but most, if not all rural economies are propped up in one way or another......

'Tendentious'?. 'Class Warfare'?. 'Animal rights'?. Gibberish!. You are just trying to stir up trouble and divert attention from the subject matter.

Nice cutting, though!.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[Touty]

'Tendentious'?. 'Class Warfare'?. 'Animal rights'?. Gibberish!. You are just trying to stir up trouble and divert attention from the subject matter.


Phil

If you read my reply again ("Tiredly as well because of the tendentious nature of a lot the interventions on threads such as this one.") you'll see that it's not directed at Big Phil at all - I just find arguing the many pros and cons of shooting with people I'll politely call "sentimentalists" a bit like "debating" evolution with creationists on the 'net (and I've tried that as well) .... a waste of keyboard strokes. As the Italians say - "like discussing the sex of angels",

 

[Edward woodwood]

I'd love to see a nice mix of habitats up there, grouse moors, along with extensive regeneration of scots pine forest on those 'bare hills' that are so part of our traditional environment... ha ha ha ha ha ha.... that they can't be 'spoiled' at all.

by and large Paul makes a great deal of sense to me but i can see Phil's point of view also and there are some good points there as well... and later on I'll mostly be ringing Kofi and hotfooting it over to South Lebanon...

 

[Jane Turner]

I think that you are right - non of us will miss the "Gamekeeper fined for disturbing Hen Harrier" headlines, but will there still be harriers on unkept moorland?

There must be a limit to the amount of land that wildlife agencies will be prepared to buy and manage.

The densest populaion of Harriers in the UK is on the grouse shooting-free Isle of Man.

 

[derekjake]

The densest populaion of Harriers in the UK is on the grouse shooting-free Isle of Man.

True Jane , but this shows not all shooting estates are against birs of prey ,(HARRIERS HATCH ON TOP MOOR) FIVE HEN HARRIER CHICKS HAVE BEEN HATCHED ON ONE OF ENGLANDS TOP MOORS . Shooting tenant Geoff Eyre has won several awards for his conservation work on the moor in Derbyshire and is now reconised as one of the countrys leading authorities on moorland regeneration. The chicks are only the second family of harriers to be hatched in the peak district in the last 130 years , Shows that shooting and coservation can go together ,

 

[Jos Stratford]

Shooting tenant Geoff Eyre has won several awards for his conservation work on the moor in Derbyshire .... Shows that shooting and conservation can go together

And good on him, I think everybody on this forum would agree they can go together, but just wish they more often did go together.

 

[derekjake]

And good on him, I think everybody on this forum would agree they can go together, but just wish they more often did go together.

Very true words JOS well put regards DEREKJAKE

 

[PennineBirder]

There are some rouge gamekeepers for sure who eliminate birds of prey (I have personal experience of this concerning Goshawk and a keeper) but. . . .. . there are some fine naturalists amongst the gamekeeping world too.

There are still some Grouse shooting concerns around here in the Peak District but they are on the decline. The wildlife, generally speaking, is better served in keepered areas than non. Where the shooting has stopped the habitat is deteriorating (except where specially managed for wildlife).

In a recent Derbyshire Wildlife Trust related survey of Mountain Hare population in this area the greatest concentrations were on managed grouse moors.

Not a shooter myself but who is going to preserve the heather if the money from grouse shooting disappears?

Peter B.
Holmfirth
West Yorkshire

 

[Ian Bell]

There are some rouge gamekeepers for sure who eliminate birds of prey (I have personal experience of this concerning Goshawk and a keeper) but. . . .. . there are some fine naturalists amongst the gamekeeping world too.

There are still some Grouse shooting concerns around here in the Peak District but they are on the decline. The wildlife, generally speaking, is better served in keepered areas than non. Where the shooting has stopped the habitat is deteriorating (except where specially managed for wildlife).

In a recent Derbyshire Wildlife Trust related survey of Mountain Hare population in this area the greatest concentrations were on managed grouse moors.

Not a shooter myself but who is going to preserve the heather if the money from grouse shooting disappears?

Peter B.
Holmfirth
West Yorkshire

Very good question Peter.The RSPB and others cannot afford to buy all the Grouse Moors.

 

[Touty]

The densest populaion of Harriers in the UK is on the grouse shooting-free Isle of Man.

S'also still largely fox-free too - which is what I think explains the density. I live close to an area where foxes arrived in the course of the last 20 years (after the introduction of rabies vaccine baits in the Alps and Karst). Breeding Montagu's Harrier numbers have fallen from c.50 pairs to less than 5 pairs in the same period. Massive decline in Marsh Harriers too away from floating islands of reeds in the lagoon. Nearly forgot to mention.... the healthy Northern Ireland population (of Hen Harriers) has begun to switch to tree nesting which to me seems as likely as tree-nesting Lapwings!

 

[Anthony Morton]

The densest populaion of Harriers in the UK is on the grouse shooting-free Isle of Man.

I know you'll correct me if I'm wrong but I believe the IoM, which covers around 366,000 acres, currently has some 49 Hen Harrier nest sites.

When the 'de-keepering and back to nature' experiment on the 25,000 acre Langholm Moor began in 1992 there were just 2 Hen Harrier nest sites. this increased rapidly and had reached 28 nest sites in 1997, resulting in 154 Hen Harriers working the area.

Yet by 2004 this number had declined rapidly with only two pairs remaining on the moor, of which only one bred successfully.

Sources -

http://www.bloodybusiness.com/news/...s_articles/claws_out_on_a_silent_moorland.htm

http://www.scottishgamekeepers.co.uk/langholm.htm

N.B. - I do not shoot (not even clay pigeons!) and have no interest in it whatsoever. However, I believe these items do make interesting reading.

 

[griffin]

Interesting Tony, but read the bit on "Raptors" :

"At the moment raptors are protected, but they are causing major damage to game stocks and other bird numbers. Should this continue or get worse then the employment of many gamekeepers will be put in jeopardy."

If only..........This is why I can't take this lot seriously - they continue to write such utter Shi:te as this. It is rhetoric like this that perpetuates the negative attitude of most gamekeepers towards raptors. No wonder there is a problem.

Ars:eholes.

 

[griffin]

PS. I cant believe Mark Avery of RSPB actually said that a grouse moor became redundant due to increased Harrier numbers. If this is not a misquote he must have been attempting to keep common interests open in reaching agreements negociations.

A quote such is that is potentially very damaging and possibly explains ( and justifies? )the rhetoric on SGA page that I have just slagged off. Now I can't, which annoys me, as the RSPB have more or less confirmed it ( assuming it is not a misquote).

Nevertheless, there really is some amount of jobbies on that SGA site.