Full Size Bino Help for TOTAL newbie (1 Viewer)

[GeneralEverything]

Hey there, stumbled upon your site in the quest for the perfect binoculars. Went through the typical shock of how expensive they could get, and then the secondary shock of the minimum amount necessary to get quality binoculars. After picking my jaw up off the ground, and reading up, sizing up the field, etc., I'm ready to say I want to confirm my personal thoughts, and get some help.

First off, I can be an obsessive type, I like good gear, but, I'm not even out of school yet (higher education seems to go on forever...). So first off, that means that my budget REALLY doesn't have too much flexibility, and that I can take full advantage of large exit pupils (I have rather good night vision even for my age, so the bigger the better- read on). I don't generally wear glasses, so diopter adjustments for comfort are fine, but I don't need the same level others do.

What am I asking for? Well, I can obsess, so I'm going to try to keep it simple, to 2 binoculars, and perhaps a spotting scope in the future. My system (as I envision- constructive criticism helpful) is:
1 Compact Roof (I'm about to pull the trigger on the Zeiss Victory 8x20)
1 Everything else binocular: Huge, heavy, whatever.
1 (Possible, in future) Spotting scope- see anything anywhere (joke).

Compact
The compact is a must, as that is what I will mostly use. The Ultravids seem to be too far out of my price range, even when appearing on samplelist, cameralandny nra/samples, or eagle optics hot deals. I can't wrangle any more than $400 for a compact. I'd like to buy this first, as I will use it the most, and haven't ever had nice optics, big or small, so it will be nice to think something so tiny is so amazing! I'd like my disillusionment to be slow, okay? :king:

Everything Else
Not to be bought concurrently (unless actually cheap enough), but the everything else binocular. Now, I know there are tradeoffs and all that. Let me know about them. I want (good luck, I know): Good low light performance, easy glassing at a distance without eyestrain (both are partially solved by large exit pupils, right?), great detail... yeah, what everyone wants. They can be as big as Steiner Senators, heavy as a daypack; but... I'd like to do $500 or under, and I'm not averse to saving money. Yeah, ouch, I know, and if you have something REALLY worthwhile a little above, then I will consider it, but Leica Geovids are not in my near future. However, while I do love durability, waterproof, etc., I'd be fine with going with porro prisms. I'd like longer distance out of them, but will accept 6x or 7x if that seems to be a consensus. I was thinking either the Minox BD 8x44 BP, the Leupold Cascade porros, or the swift audobon 8.5x44. I've read about superior es, and the EII, but haven't fully gathered information on availability and such. Additionally, I've done my best to extrapolate what the best porros are, and the Swift and SE seem to be the top competitors. I've read all the wonders of the Promaster ELX mumbojumbo (that name... escapes me) and the Hawke, and the Vipers. However, because this is maximum bang for the buck, I don't give a hoot about size, roof prism elitism, weight, or whatever, I just want the best "cover (as much of) everything a compact doesn't" binoculars, though I do want to make a solid investment.

Possible future scope: Probably something cheap if in the short-term, something awesome in the long term. May buy cheap one (sandpiper) to have as a backup anyway and in future have good scope to reach out and see anything. Not a big consideration at this point, but consider that I would probably go at least $900 for the scope, quite possibly reaching into the 1500+ ones (Kowa 883... :smoke, so you can help me with advice with this range of optics in mind.

Criticism appreciated. Yes, I know, blasphemy to propose only 3 different methods to deal with all my viewing! I may end up making it more complicated, but right now, let's pretend I'm going to make it simple, and you're going to help me, OK ?

Thanks for reading, and sorry for any painfully stupid terminology mistakes, assumptions, etc. I will most likely be very responsive to this thread, but... I'm going to have to limit my contact with you all beyond the thread, as my wallet is already shaking in fear at how a simple single binocular for ~$200 has morphed into a well over $1000 plan. :-O

GenEv

 

[Jim M.]

Hello and welcome to the forum. A few questions. Why do you need a compact? And how compact does it have to be? Compact enough to fit in a shirt pocket, or just a coat pocket, or just generally small binoculars? Regarding the larger binos, why will the weight not matter? Will they just sit around the house? Also, will these be used for birding?

Best,
Jim

 

[pinsonp2]

I would recommend the Nikon LXL 8x20 for a compact. You can get them at Adorama for under $400 (http://www.adorama.com/NK820LXP.html). They are double hinged and some do not like that feature.

 

[GeneralEverything]

A real Compact. I know, I know, "but 8x30 IS compact!" Not in my book. I either have the binoculars fit into a shirt pocket, or a compartment of my messenger bag (without taking up much space, it can hold approx 5 thin and light laptops, and looks awkward), or I might as well go with the huge binoculars. I've thought about the tradeoffs, and lord knows I've read about them (was it 24hourcampfire where a poor guy says he wants opinions on Leica 8x20 ultravids, and people inundate him with pentax 8x30s, he starts saying that well, a 8x40 isn't that bad, and gets sidetracked for a few pages until he comes to his senses and realizes he has plenty of good larger format bins, and returns to the desired 8x20 format). I probably will eventually get 8x30s, 8x32s, 8x40s, 8x42s... but I'm playing make believe right now, and I would appreciate if you'd join me . The idea of compacts is they go ANYWHERE. I originally was going for monoculars, and played with some zeiss, a Minox macroscope, and realized that small binocs would do it better, but hopefully that gives you an idea on how much compact size is a necessity.

Not for birding (at this point, anyway). I live in a part of the country where there is a lot of beautiful open fields and forest, and plenty of great stuff to look at. I might look at birds with them, but it's for fun mostly; taking in views- I enjoy toys, especially when they come with a community I might get involved with in the future. I do some birdwatching at points, but I've just gotten interested in all of this, so while I'm not a full birder at this point it's nice to be able to get involved when I already own decent equipment. Besides, birders are the most demanding people of optics, so if it's good for birding, aside from astronomy, it is good for just about all else I'd use it for.

Re the Nikons: yeah, I did consider those. Are the views really that much better than the Zeiss? I do like the sexy factor with the victorys... I read some .pdf on a comparison of the zeiss, leica, swarovski, and leica, and the nikon did come out ahead of the Zeiss. I'm open to suggestions, but I'm also probably easily impressed, having never owned anything more expensive than 8x20 bushnell $15 specials.

No offense intended in any reply; if any seems intended, consider my humor to be rather tone deaf. And thanks for the prompt replies!

GenEv

 

[Jim M.]

For the large binoculars, I would look very closely at the Hawke Frontier ED 8 x 43 model that FrankD reviewed recently. You do not wear glasses, so eye relief will not be an issue, and you might as well get some binoculars that offer a wide field of view rather than some that shrink the field of view to offer better eye relief. (I think the vipers would make no sense for you -- two of their big advantages are eye relief and low weight for an 8 x 42). And if Frank's review is accurate, you cannot get better image quality for the money.

Best,
Jim

 

[Kevin Purcell]

Just pick one thing for elucidation

The compact is a must, as that is what I will mostly use.

Why? Why not a smallish x28 or even better a x32 which might be a useful compromise until you can get both a full size and a compact.

I know we all have the feeling that there must be a good compact out there (for a reasonable price) but the evidence is against it. And even the very good compacts are not a "nice" to use for any extended use as even a less good bin with a bigger exit pupil.

So why do you think the compact will be your primary bin?

 

[GeneralEverything]

For the large binoculars, I would look very closely at the Hawke Frontier ED 8 x 43 model that FrankD reviewed recently. You do not wear glasses, so eye relief will not be an issue, and you might as well get some binoculars that offer a wide field of view rather than some that shrink the field of view to offer better eye relief. (I think the vipers would make no sense for you -- two of their big advantages are eye relief and low weight for an 8 x 42). And if Frank's review is accurate, you cannot get better image quality for the money.

Best,
Jim

Thank you very much Jim. Indeed, FrankD actually was the guy who dragged me into this optics obsession, by cross-posting on another completely unrelated board and made me more curious. In response to an earlier question of yours I didn't see, the binos will probably sit around a lot. However, I'm young, strong, and need to stretch my wallet, so all the talk about tiring myself or my arms carrying it just means that I'll get stronger arms and a stronger neck (if no harness) :-O. I'm willing to revise my set up off what you forumites who are far wiser than I am, but I do have parameters that I'd like to meet.

To Kevin, whose reply came in as I was quoting and responding to Jim, so I can't quote you :-C:
I've read your reviews and responses and know you know what you're talking about. Why would the compact be my primary? Because I'll have it. I'm getting out of class- it's a beautiful cold but clear morning. I've got a 30 minute window, I'm not going back to my room, my bag is already pretty full of books and such. I pull out my compact binoculars, which fit without sacrificing texts for class. I take a look around, noticing the mountains and the wildlife. I jog down to a field enjoy a view for 5 minutes, take a quick look at departing birds, ones soaring on thermals, and the general landscape, then jog back up, and go to my next class. Now, doing that with anything but a fold up pair of binoculars sounds silly, as I'd have to get a new bag, have it weigh more, and they'd be large enough that instead of me adding non-intrusive protective padding, it may (without such protection) hit things as I run off somewhere and my bag trails behind me, or I come to a sudden stop as I round a corner (brick walls) :eek!:.

When it comes to a planned expedition, where I know I'll want some optic bliss, I can make room for a huge honking pair of binoculars. But, a compromise piece would be left behind at least 30% more, if not more like 70% or so. I already carry "ridiculous" things with me all the time (flashlight, pocket knife, etc) so a small pair of binoculars wouldn't be out of character, whereas I'd be a total dork if I humped a larger pair everywhere, and I couldn't anyway.

Besides, the most important thing to remember is: aside from testing out the monoculars, I haven't ever used anything that cost more than $50. So, for someone like you, a compact is a horrible compromise. For me, having mostly used $15 compact bushnells, a brunton echo 7x18 monoc, and occasionally looked through some ~$50 promotional 8x40 or 8x44 binocs that probably weren't even in collimation, they'll probably look pretty darn good to me until I get the aforementioned large awesome binocs. Then I'll cry and look into x32s. I don't really see $$ coming my way in the near future, so buying a compromise piece now would... tie up my funds in a compromise.

All kidding and snarkiness aside, I do respect your opinion as I said before, and value all constructive criticism. Thanks guys, keep it coming.

GevEv

 

[pinsonp2]

I like the Nikons and the view was just as good to me as the Zeiss I briefly looked through. You really need to look, feel, and touch to find the one that suits you best.

 

[GeneralEverything]

I like the Nikons and the view was just as good to me as the Zeiss I briefly looked through. You really need to look, feel, and touch to find the one that suits you best.

So I've heard... well, the places I'm considering ordering from aren't drastically different from where most people here shop (i.e., I read about where most people here shop, and that's where I'll stick to), and these places seem to be super good with return policies. I'm not aware that the places nearby stock both nikon lxls and Zeiss Victory compacts, I'll have to check. Thanks for the advice though.

GenEv

 

[Steve C]

As Jim has told you there is no better value in optical quality for the money you will spend, staying at your $500 limit than you will get from either the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED or the Hawke Frontier ED. These seem to be pretty much the same binocular with some minor differences. They are on the big size, but not outlandish for a full size 42 mm binocular. The Vortex Viper is only a touch behind these at pretty much the same price. It is a little smaller and has less FOV, but still a good binocular. You might look at the Vortex Fury binoculars. They are nearly the optical equal of the Vipers and are a bit less $$ at about $350.

Decent, small, compact and cheap binoculars are a different matter. To get a good useable pocket size binocular, you may need to go to one of the top quality brands. There are some less expensive options. I can't tell you much about them as I haven't seen any. I have my eye open and I am personally thinking about takin a look at them. They are the Minox BD 8x24 BR and Pentax DCF SW 8x25. These are both pocket size, double hinge binoculars. They are also phase corrected, buit have pretty narrow FOV. The Minox BV 8x25 BRW is likely worth a look as well. It is a small single hinge binocular, that will work OK in your bag or a large shirt pocket. They are also phase corrected and have a pretty large fov. For a little bigger compact glass, the Bushnell Custom Elite 7x26 ia a very good glass. Not real compact, but small enough for your bag. I have the version from when they were still the Baush & Lomb 7x26 Custom Compact and I like them a lot. They are not really pocket size however.

I would think that for the $500 you could get decent glass with say an 8x42 Fury and a Minox 8x25 BRW. The Fury is about $350 and the Minox is about $150. You could gain some optics experience with these as you get out of college and maybe get a little more disposable income. The Fury binocular would have served me well in my college days as a Biology major.

Order from someplace like Eagle Optics or CameralandNY who will let you return binoculars if they are in out of the box condition after a trial time. That way you can try before you buy. Might be a real good idea with the smaller roof compacts.

 

[lmans66]

Ditto on what others said...why have the compact? Go for a good 8 x 42 or there abouts...that is what I have used for 20 years and you don't need much more for birding in many respects.

Quality....there is quality and there is perhaps those that go overboard a bit. You can buy the cadillac of Binocs but really, do you need it? If not, save yourself some dollars and get a good mid priced pair and you will be just has happy.

my two cents

 

[Kevin Purcell]

To Kevin, whose reply came in as I was quoting and responding to Jim, so I can't quote you :-C:

Just copy the test and hit the yellow speech bubble in the toolbar

I've read your reviews and responses and know you know what you're talking about. Why would the compact be my primary? Because I'll have it. I'm getting out of class- it's a beautiful cold but clear morning. I've got a 30 minute window, I'm not going back to my room, my bag is already pretty full of books and such. I pull out my compact binoculars, which fit without sacrificing texts for class. I take a look around, noticing the mountains and the wildlife.

I though that would be the case. Just trying to see what your "use case" is.

I'm all for carrying bins all the time. I've lost a couple of interesting birds just noticed whilst walking because I didn't have bins on me. But the win of carrying any bin might be better than the best possible bin. There are even some sub-$100 compacts that are worth using in this role even 25mm ones like the Nikon ATB (assuming you don't need the eye relief). SteveC's recommendations are good to: the Pentax and the Minox. Heck even the Yosemite 6x30 is 18oz (but a bit larger in size) but it has a great image.

Now that said I'd still recommend a lower-end single hinge 28mm or 32mm as a compromise especially if that lets you get to a decent mid or full size bin quicker i.e. if you don't have a lot of money.

I've been doing this myself and getting one with good enough quality and light enough weight without spending much money is a bit of challenge. But there are some good ones out there. And if you are carrying a backpack it's not too difficult to throw a bin in there (even if it more than a pound in weight).

But if you can afford it go for a top end compact they'd work well for your intended use.

As I always say try a few bins before you buy any. You will start to get a feel for them. And you will be surprised

The compact route seems very attractive until you've tried it and then you see all of the compromises involved.

 

[Tero]

Skip the compact. And there are plenty of 8x32s if you need to travel with a smaller pair later. Look at Vortex, Bushnell, Pentax SP models are on sale now.

1 Everything else binocular: Huge, heavy, whatever.

So go for this first.Go about 25-30 oz in weight and put the money on this one. 8x42 or 10x42.

 

[GeneralEverything]

Ditto on what others said...why have the compact? Go for a good 8 x 42 or there abouts...that is what I have used for 20 years and you don't need much more for birding in many respects.
[...]

Ahh, see, that's the problem. I wondered if I accentuated the birdwatching factor too much. I definitely will watch winged creatures through these binoculars, but to put the percentage of time I will be doing that anywhere above 40% would not be accurate. If I have something that's actually accessible that I have with me, then I'm going to play with it. A lot.

[...]
But the win of carrying any bin might be better than the best possible bin. There are even some sub-$100 compacts that are worth using in this role even 25mm ones like the Nikon ATB (assuming you don't need the eye relief). SteveC's recommendations are good to: the Pentax and the Minox. Heck even the Yosemite 6x30 is 18oz (but a bit larger in size) but it has a great image.

Now that said I'd still recommend a lower-end single hinge 28mm or 32mm as a compromise especially if that lets you get to a decent mid or full size bin quicker i.e. if you don't have a lot of money.

I've been doing this myself and getting one with good enough quality and light enough weight without spending much money is a bit of challenge. But there are some good ones out there. And if you are carrying a backpack it's not too difficult to throw a bin in there (even if it more than a pound in weight).

But if you can afford it go for a top end compact they'd work well for your intended use.

As I always say try a few bins before you buy any. You will start to get a feel for them. And you will be surprised

The compact route seems very attractive until you've tried it and then you see all of the compromises involved.

Ahhh, I like your response. Still pushing your agenda, but in a way that fits into my lifestyle :t:. Alright, I'll play ball. Let's say I'll keep an open mind if anyone has any pictures showing size comparisons between x20s, x25s, x28s, or whatever. I don't really know many local places with quality optics. If someone could post comparison pictures (folded, unfolded, etc.), that would be very helpful.

Skip the compact. And there are plenty of 8x32s if you need to travel with a smaller pair later. Look at Vortex, Bushnell, Pentax SP models are on sale now.


So go for this first.Go about 25-30 oz in weight and put the money on this one. 8x42 or 10x42.

What would be better in my approx price range besides a Hawke/Promaster? Nearly double to get at a Meostar? Razors? Honestly, without getting into full size alphas, which is a sight too ridiculous at this point, I wasn't aware of anything that really beat them at this point.

As Jim has told you there is no better value in optical quality for the money you will spend, staying at your $500 limit than you will get from either the Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED or the Hawke Frontier ED. [...] You might look at the Vortex Fury binoculars. They are nearly the optical equal of the Vipers and are a bit less $$ at about $350.

Decent, small, compact and cheap binoculars are a different matter. [...] They are the Minox BD 8x24 BR and Pentax DCF SW 8x25. These are both pocket size, double hinge binoculars. They are also phase corrected, buit have pretty narrow FOV. The Minox BV 8x25 BRW is likely worth a look as well. [...]

I would think that for the $500 you could get decent glass with say an 8x42 Fury and a Minox 8x25 BRW. The Fury is about $350 and the Minox is about $150. You could gain some optics experience with these as you get out of college and maybe get a little more disposable income. The Fury binocular would have served me well in my college days as a Biology major.

Order from someplace like Eagle Optics or CameralandNY who will let you return binoculars if they are in out of the box condition after a trial time. That way you can try before you buy. Might be a real good idea with the smaller roof compacts.

I really do appreciate a voice of reason here, giving advice on saving and not implicitly willing me to rob banks. Are there any reviews on the fury, minox, or pentax? I've definitely seen them, but all that is mentioned are the Vipers and Razors, and the Big 3+nikon for compacts. Wasn't there some QC problems with the Fury?

Thanks again guys. Appreciate the advice, as I'm obviously clueless on this stuff. So, just for the record, are Porros dead then? Because I'd heard I could get near alpha bin quality without the price. Is that conventional wisdom wrong?
GenEV

 

[Steve C]

What would be better in my approx price range besides a Hawke/Promaster? Nearly double to get at a Meostar? Razors? Honestly, without getting into full size alphas, which is a sight too ridiculous at this point, I wasn't aware of anything that really beat them at this point.

GenEV

There isn't anything that will beat them (Promaster/Hawke) optically at the $500 point; until you hit the alpha's. And then the difference is really slim. I've spent some time the last couple of weeks comparing my Promaster ELX ED to top end Swarovski EL, Leica U HD, Zeiss FL, and Steiner XP. I'll get a post together about that and get it up by this evening, I hope.

 

[Tero]

What would be better in my approx price range besides a Hawke/Promaster? Nearly double to get at a Meostar?

If the oddball brand does not appeal, Pentax SP 8x43 or Vortex Viper
http://www.eagleoptics.com/index.asp?pid=4654

 

[Alexis Powell]

I have no argument with your plan to get a good compact, and the Zeiss 8x20 Victory is my second favorite 8x20 after the Leica 8x20 Ultravid BL (I own both). My original, not dielectric coated Victory, was inferior to the Leica in dealing with backlight, but my new, dielectric coated unit (Zeiss replaced the first unit under warranty due to a manufacturing defect), is just as good or better than the Leica in every respect optically. The only things I like better about the Leica are the speed with which I can focus near to far (a practical concern for a butterflyer-birder such as myself), and its sexy metal and faux (?) leather build (an aesthetic bias).

It's true that an awesome 8x32 will give you nearly uncompromised optical performance in a very compact package (the Leica 8x32 Ultravid is my vote for the champ in that regard), but it is also true that the performance of top-end pocket roofs can be stunningly good. In fact, I would recommend getting the best (Leica Ultravid or Zeiss Victory) and being done with it. You'll have the small end covered for life, and you can get a good 8x32 or 8x42 to complement it when you have the money to do so in the future. I wouldn't go with an 8x25 or 8x28--much bulkier than the Zeiss 8x20, too close in size to the 8x32 that you might get down the road, and I don't know of any that are top-notch optically so if you might be tempted (and rightly so) to upgrade in the future.

My pocket roofs get _a lot_ of use; besides being great for any occasion when I want to have a bino with me without noticing that I'm carrying one, they're handy for butterflying (<6 foot close focus and no need for a big exit pupil for viewing those sun loving critters), when I'm juggling secondary importance binoculars with primary importance camera, at theater/dance/orchestral performances, and are a constant companion in my day bag during spring and fall migrations.

--AP

 

[Tero]

Since you claim to do minimal birding with these, get the 8x20 Zeiss or get the lightest and most compact 8x32 you can find. There are numerous good models these days, but the Meopta may be the best for under 1000. Pentax 8x32 ED comes close, may be even better to some.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

So, just for the record, are Porros dead then? Because I'd heard I could get near alpha bin quality without the price. Is that conventional wisdom wrong?

Not at all but the problem is (as many have opined here) that there are no op end "modern" porros.

There are some good porros out there:

A second hand Nikon SE 8x32 or Nikon E2 8x30 (if you don't wear eyeglasses ... ER is short) are still excellent bets but they're not waterprooof.

FrankD really likes the Leupold Cascades 8x42 (Opticron HR WP 8x42 in UK). Very sharp. Waterproof. Internal focuser. Rather narrow FOV. You need a very good roof to beat it.

Swift Audubon 8.5x44 ED or non-ED. The "poor man's Swarovski". More bulky than a roof - the main reason for the change to roofs, IMHO, was ergonomics. But the view is good. ER is mediocre. Wide field.

Leupold Yosemite 6x30 or 8x30 just below $100 are both decent porros that you need a roof of twice to three times the cost to beat. It shows what a "modern" porro could be if imagine a hybrid between the Yosemite and Cascades (I guess that would be Shasta or Lassen ) with good ER, waterproofing and fogproofing, internal focus, lightweight composite enclosure.

You can always use Google (site:birdforum.net narrows the search) or the forum search to find reviews and comments.

 

[jimtrader11]

So I've heard... well, the places I'm considering ordering from aren't drastically different from where most people here shop (i.e., I read about where most people here shop, and that's where I'll stick to), and these places seem to be super good with return policies. I'm not aware that the places nearby stock both nikon lxls and Zeiss Victory compacts, I'll have to check. Thanks for the advice though.

GenEv

I have Zeiss 8x20 Conquest with rolled down eye cups (I wear glasses) and the Nikon 10x25. Both are superb and the Nikon is built like a tank. However, the Nikons irk me due to the focus knob being in front by the objectives instead of the rear like most binoculars. You have to focus them with something other than your index finger. One day soon, I will sell the Nikons just for that.
Regarding your choice of Zeiss Victory 8x20, I think you will be happy with it and it may be better than the cheaper Conquest for you as I think it has twist or pullup eyecups and is waterproof.