Steve Babbs
Well-known member
Well there is a whole existential issue about whether things 'matter' but, from a conservation point of view, yes.
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Grey Squirrel Picture Great Britain. (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter JoeyVimsanteThePoet
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Steve Babbs
Well-known member
I really don't mean to be patronising but have you read the peer-reviewed papers in the major scientific journals? Because that is simply not what the research says. Sadly my essay has long been lost or I could give you some references. Harris & Yalden Handbook of British Mammals do give quite a few.
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IamFof
Well-known member
I totally disagree with your comment.
I am 79 and very clearly remember Reds being a visible part of nature in the south of England when I was growing up. Never saw a grey and they had been expanding their range since the 1870s
Steve Babbs
Well-known member
And in the 80's I would see them in the forests around Rendlesham and in the Brecks. Of the course the big storm in the 80s didn't help, especially in the Rendlesham area.
Peregrine Took
Well-known member
I'm sorry, but you keep repeating this as if it is fact, but others have suggested that it is - to use your own words in #8 - 'basically nonsense'.
I replied to post #8 in post #15, that persecution of certain species in less enlightened times is hardly an argument for the acceptance of invasive species today, which is what you appear to be suggesting.
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CPP Gardener
Active member
And we have kudzu, English ivy, Tree of Heaven(or hell depending on experience), Japanese honeysuckle, Nutria and so forth. Just because it’s difficult to eradicate them doesn’t mean it’s pointless. Any progress is progress and the more points of attack the more success will be achieved. Locally there is an effort to eliminate Eastern Fox squirrels which have crowded out the native California Gray squirrels. How’s that for irony?
Steve Babbs
Well-known member
New Zealand has become the leader in dealing with invasive mammals, with multiple successes eradicating invasives, mostly rats, from Pacific islands.
Are there lessons there that could be more broadly applied?
Perhaps with more sophisticated genetic engineering, it might be possible to target gray squirrels selectively., using biological agents,
Then again, afaik Australia was the only a continent wide biological mammal extermination effort, with myxomatosis. It had no long term success, rabbits remain part of the Australian biome.
New Zealand has had success on moderately small mostly uninhabited offshore islands and select fenched areas - on the vastness of the mainland (North and South Islands), multiple invasive mammals are still extremely abundant despite control measures.
They do however have an ambitious goal to try and tackle this issue at a nationwide level. Success here would be impressive, but that stands to be seen.
I am not sure there is much comparable between their successes and the measures that would be needed in the highly complex, huge area of a territory such as the UK. Even more so because New Zealand has the luxury of no native mammals that could also be wiped out by mass extermination by means of poisoning (usual approach on offshore islands) or mass trapping. If native mammals occur alongside, obviously control measures have to be selective...and that means even more difficult. And then there is the issue of urban areas, mass trapping, shooting or poisoning is always going to be problematic both to sell and logistically, and it likely to be fairly ineffective.
CPP Gardener
Active member
A judicious application of CRSPR might do the trick, especially in New Zealand. Since there’s no chance for eliminating native species and no poison or corpses, there should be minimal resistance. Could work elsewhere, too.
Andy Adcock
Worst person on Birdforum
Careful Removal of Squirrels Permited but not Red?
Foregive my ignorance but it's very annoying when people assume that any given acronym is known to all.
Foregive my ignorance but it's very annoying when people assume that any given acronym is known to all.
Yours is the nice alternative, but it is actually, I believe (thanks to Google), a type of gene editing. I guess he means genes could be edited to make them less able to breed/survive? But that seems counter to how I imagine it would work, the genetically altered would not spread their genes and die out, no?
Genetic mutant Grey Squirrels ... could almost design a horror film around it
This is very interesting to read from North America. I would also be very sad to lose red squirrels. Here in the USA we have different red squirrels:
en.wikipedia.org
The reds are actually more aggressive and dominant over the gray here. They must have evolved aggression and fighting ability to compete with the grays that is not present in Eurasian reds.
The reds usually stick to pine trees and the gray to deciduous. One summer I actually watched as a gang of red squirrels came and took over the walnut tree in my yard, they ran the greys right off the territory in a series of confrontations. The reds are smaller but more vicious.
The gray squirrels breed like crazy, there is no hope for eliminating them. A couple years ago we had a "squirrelageddon" or "squirrel apocalypse" where they massively over-bred. They are said to be the favorite meal of red-tail hawks but the raptors can't even begin to keep up with the gray squirrel's reproductive abilities:
American red squirrel - Wikipedia
The reds are actually more aggressive and dominant over the gray here. They must have evolved aggression and fighting ability to compete with the grays that is not present in Eurasian reds.
The reds usually stick to pine trees and the gray to deciduous. One summer I actually watched as a gang of red squirrels came and took over the walnut tree in my yard, they ran the greys right off the territory in a series of confrontations. The reds are smaller but more vicious.
The gray squirrels breed like crazy, there is no hope for eliminating them. A couple years ago we had a "squirrelageddon" or "squirrel apocalypse" where they massively over-bred. They are said to be the favorite meal of red-tail hawks but the raptors can't even begin to keep up with the gray squirrel's reproductive abilities:
The Great Squirrel Apocalypse | One Year Later
In the fall of 2018, millions of squirrels met their demise on New England roadways. One year later, we look back at the why and the how, and what’s in store for 2019.
newengland.com
CPP Gardener
Active member
Sorry about the confusion and lack of I.
They can do something that makes them only produce male babies. All those males father only male babies, the genes get spread and after a few years all you have is boys and then they die off for lack of mates. Since the Grays and Reds don’t interbreed there isn’t a problem of eliminating the species you want to keep. The modification is only spread genetically so potential for disastrous consequences is non-existent.
They can do something that makes them only produce male babies. All those males father only male babies, the genes get spread and after a few years all you have is boys and then they die off for lack of mates. Since the Grays and Reds don’t interbreed there isn’t a problem of eliminating the species you want to keep. The modification is only spread genetically so potential for disastrous consequences is non-existent.
Not sure how that would work. Are you creating these male only breeders in the lab and then introducing them? Or is there some agent that you introduce into the wild population that turns them into male only breeders?
There was talk a while ago about synthesis of a drug that sterilised grey squirrels. Trials were being talked about.
My point has always been that the problems caused by Grey Squirrels, predation of song birds and forestry impacts, are problems of squirrels in general not just Greys. Red Squirrels were being persecuted for the same crimes for centuries before Greys came to the UK. Red Squirrel as a species is ICUN Least Concern. The funds used to enforce genetic purity in the UK squirrel population are much better spent elsewhere. There is also the fact that a lot the current emphasis on lethal control is driven by the UK shooting industry, who want to extend legal lethal control to all manner of UK wildlife.
There was talk a while ago about synthesis of a drug that sterilised grey squirrels. Trials were being talked about.
My point has always been that the problems caused by Grey Squirrels, predation of song birds and forestry impacts, are problems of squirrels in general not just Greys. Red Squirrels were being persecuted for the same crimes for centuries before Greys came to the UK. Red Squirrel as a species is ICUN Least Concern. The funds used to enforce genetic purity in the UK squirrel population are much better spent elsewhere. There is also the fact that a lot the current emphasis on lethal control is driven by the UK shooting industry, who want to extend legal lethal control to all manner of UK wildlife.
Also not sure how that would work - surely if you introduce genetically modified individuals to produce only males, the genetic line would die out very quickly, leaving the existing unmodified individuals to continue breeding.
