Harrier sp - Suffolk Mid-May 2012 (1 Viewer)

[lostinjapan]

Hi all

Some pretty ropey photos of a 2nd calendar bird taken at Shingle Street in May 2012.

I was fairly sure what it was based on filed views, but just canvassing for opinions or hints on clinching ID..though probably not possible based on angle and quality of photos.

Thanks for looking

Sean

 

[KGS]

I think this should be a Hen harrier. Blunt wing-tip probably best assessed from pic 3.

 

[Gordon]

White rump a bit wide for other candidates?

 

[tconzemi]

I think this should be a Hen harrier. Blunt wing-tip probably best assessed from pic 3.

Agree, you can even count five fingers

 

[lostinjapan]

Hi all

I should point out that any ringtail harrier is unusual in Suffolk in May and indeed Montagu's is more likely as a passage bird in May, while Pallid has never been recorded.

There had been a female Hen Harrier recorded at the start of May at this location, but it hadn't been seen for over a week and was much larger than this bird.

The strange thing about this bird is that perceived characters from brief close observations seemed to contradict what can be seen in the photos. In flight it seemed quite slender and had a rapid and quite buoyant flight.

The other things that stood out on first sight were the dark secondaries contrasting with the primaries, the very pale unstreaked straw coloured underparts, apart from some rufous streaking on axillaries and and some of the flanks. The amount of white around the eye was rather extensive above and below and there appeared to be a quite obvious boa, as seen in the last photo.

However, on reviewing the images it appeared to be quite broad-winged and to have an obvious white rump, both not obvious during observation.

Having read a lot on 2nd cal harriers and seen a lot of images, a broad white rump doesn't necessarily mean Hen Harrier. Moreover, all 3 harriers can appear quite broad-winged in some images more so Hen and Pallid, but Hen always has shorter wings, due to short primaries.

During field observation I was struck by the fact it didn't appear to have 5 fingers but rather 4, as can be seen in Pic 1 on left wing. I am also not sure 5 fingers are to be seen in pic 3, as grass obscures the bird. However, it is possible that a primary was missing on the left wing or I simply miscounted the primaries as the close view of all primaries I had was rather brief when it chased greenfinches just 30 m away.

It certainly appears quite blunt-winged in pic 3, and did to some extent when primaries were closed on downbeats and yet in flight as can be seen in pic 1, P7-9 often appeared long and slender when open during gliding or upward wingbeats.

What do people think of overall colouration and the little that can be seen of the head pattern?

Sean

 

[tconzemi]

Hen can look strange sometimes, look at this one http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=242154 which I got wrong, so best thing is probably to agree that your pictures just give not enough to make it a Pallid even if one can see quite a nice collar in the last one, and agree that five fingers is more a guess than a count

 

[Biancone]

Just taking the images into account, this looks very much like a Hen Harrier to me. Pretty sure of five primaries on right wingtip in pic 3, and undoubtedly a broad hand. If you really enlarge pic 1, I think there is a hint of a fifth finger on left wingtip, but edge on and so very thin & indistinct in image. Hard to really see extent of streaking ventrally - I've certainly got some low quality Hen Harrier images that look unstreaked but high res images of the same bird show clear streaks! I've also got an image (below) of what I think is a Hen Harrier with a moderate boa (some thought this bird was a Pallid hybrid, but I'm not convinced, perhaps a Hen with some Pallid genes?).
Brian

 

[phil baber]

This "fatty" shows all the HH traits. Including 5 extant primary tips on the hand.

 

[lostinjapan]

Just taking the images into account, this looks very much like a Hen Harrier to me. Pretty sure of five primaries on right wingtip in pic 3, and undoubtedly a broad hand. If you really enlarge pic 1, I think there is a hint of a fifth finger on left wingtip, but edge on and so very thin & indistinct in image. Hard to really see extent of streaking ventrally - I've certainly got some low quality Hen Harrier images that look unstreaked but high res images of the same bird show clear streaks! I've also got an image (below) of what I think is a Hen Harrier with a moderate boa (some thought this bird was a Pallid hybrid, but I'm not convinced, perhaps a Hen with some Pallid genes?).
Brian

Hi Brian

Thanks for your comments. I really did see only 4 prominent primaries on this bird, though as I said that was a brief close view and then only had it flying away, so I could have missed the 5th primary. I'm not trying to turn this into a Pallid, but will admit that based on initial views I really did think this was possibly a 2nd cal Monty's as it appeared slender, rapid and quite buoyant.

I imagine the slender appearance, ( with I thought not so broad hand ) in the field are due to it simply being a young male. There was some grey in the tail and on the head.

The pale unstreaked appearance was definitely not a photographic artifact, but was paler & more washed out than your bird, with just a little streaking limited to the throat. The boa wasn't as extensive as your bird either.

As to your comments Phil, are you referring to my bird or Brian's as a 'fatty' ? Harriers deserve to be treated with respect when discussing their weight and appearance .

Cheers

Sean

 

[mäkpe]

Just taking the images into account, this looks very much like a Hen Harrier to me. Pretty sure of five primaries on right wingtip in pic 3, and undoubtedly a broad hand. If you really enlarge pic 1, I think there is a hint of a fifth finger on left wingtip, but edge on and so very thin & indistinct in image. Hard to really see extent of streaking ventrally - I've certainly got some low quality Hen Harrier images that look unstreaked but high res images of the same bird show clear streaks! I've also got an image (below) of what I think is a Hen Harrier with a moderate boa (some thought this bird was a Pallid hybrid, but I'm not convinced, perhaps a Hen with some Pallid genes?).
Brian

Why this isn't a 1cy female Pallid? OK, it doesn't show the most typical primary barring (bars looks organised), but otherwise it looks spot on for Pallid. Unstreaked underparts, well defined collar, facial pattern typical for Pallid. Right wing tip seems to be broad, but in left wing it seems narrow...

 

[tconzemi]

Why this isn't a 1cy female Pallid? OK, it doesn't show the most typical primary parring (bars looks organised), but otherwise it looks spot on for Pallid. Unstreaked underparts, well defined collar, facial pattern typical for Pallid. Right wing tip seems to be broad, but in left wing it seems narrow...

Second bird to avoid mixing up: P6 difficult to assess otherwise perfect head pattern for Pallid and looks completely unstreaked, agree with mäkpe, but maybe you have other pictures with P6?

 

[Tib78]

Biancone's bird looks like a big brute. I do understand those who think it might be a hybrid: unstreaked underparts and head pattern certainly reminiscent of Pallid (but collar rather narrow though). Might be a Pallid, might be a hybrid.

OP bird looks like a Hen to me too.

 

[mäkpe]

Biancone's bird looks like a big brute. I do understand those who think it might be a hybrid: unstreaked underparts and head pattern certainly reminiscent of Pallid (but collar rather narrow though). Might be a Pallid, might be a hybrid.

OP bird looks like a Hen to me too.

Looks a brute, that's true and why i assumed it's a female. But can you produce any pics of hybrids with unstreaked underside and underwing coverts?

 

[Tib78]

Looks a brute, that's true and why i assumed it's a female. But can you produce any pics of hybrids with unstreaked underside and underwing coverts?

Hi Petteri,

Actually most PallidxHen seems to be unstreaked on the underparts and the underwings AFAIK. To be honest I just checked on our favourite Finnish website to be sure...

Edit: see DF's 2009 bird for example: http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Dick1251671034&lang=eng

 

[mäkpe]

Hi Petteri,

Actually most PallidxHen seems to be unstreaked on the underparts and the underwings AFAIK. To be honest I just checked on our favourite Finnish website to be sure...

Edit: see DF's 2009 bird for example: http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/index.php?pic_id=Dick1251671034&lang=eng

Well i should have checked those to refresh my memory. However, those have at least light streaking on breast sides, which probably wouldn't show in pics like the one with subject bird.

 

[Biancone]

Second bird to avoid mixing up: P6 difficult to assess otherwise perfect head pattern for Pallid and looks completely unstreaked, agree with mäkpe, but maybe you have other pictures with P6?

Apologies to OP for distraction, and others for ignoring remarks (I was away). I attach a few more images of the bird that became known locally as "the orange harrier". It was present throughout winter 2011/2012 at a wetland site in Cambridgeshire. Some originally thought it was a candidate Northern Harrier, and then the Pallid x Hen hybrid hypothesis seemed to explain the mix of characters. Not sure if anyone came up with a definitive ID. Structurally it looked good for Hen to me, and still does (look especially at new 2nd and 3rd images), and I don't think anyone was able to confirm the details of finger morphology that DF described as typical for a hybrid (and I've forgotten just where those details are described). My own suspicion was that the bird was basically a Hen Harrier, not a first generation hybrid, but showing signs of some input of Pallid genes perhaps a generation or two back.
My images are poor quality and, although the bird looks essentially unstreaked in them, some degree of ventral streaking was evident in certain lights and at very close range. The head and neck pattern was as striking, and Pallid-like, as the images suggest.
A birder with a proper camera later got some good quality images (HERE), but these make the bird look much less orange ventrally than it did in life. In fact, looking at these again, that rather weak trailing edge band in the band looks quite Pallid-like. Please, nobody tell me this was actually a real Pallid !!
Apologies again to the OP for this distraction...
Brian

 

[tconzemi]

Interesting bird
Dick Forsman's bird is to be found here http://www.dickforsman.com/bird-identification/ (scroll down), the clincher in that bird was a deep emargination to the outer vane of p6 never found in Pallid but which cannot really be seen in all these pictures here as you need perfect pictures from the upper side

 

[Tib78]

More detailed comments by Dick Forsman on Netfugl:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=42962
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=42825

Based on this, and though the exact wing formula is rather difficult to assess, I'd say your bird is very likely to be a Hen x Pallid, Biancone.

 

[Biancone]

More detailed comments by Dick Forsman on Netfugl:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=42962
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=42825

Based on this, and though the exact wing formula is rather difficult to assess, I'd say your bird is very likely to be a Hen x Pallid, Biancone.

Ah yes, that's where I had read DF's discussion! Really fascinating. My images won't decide anything (except how Pallid-like the head/neck pattern was), and even the better images I linked to don't clinch the emargination detail. BUT, I'm happy others found this bird interesting, and a probable Hen x Pallid. Renewed apologies to OP for distraction...
Brian

 

[lostinjapan]

No worries hijacking the thread. The more I can learn about harriers the better.

I am assuming that your pics were of the bird in the Birding World article on hybrid harriers?

It certainly looks like a good candidate for a hybrid to me.

Cheers

Sean