Help with id of Turkish Copper (1 Viewer)

[Ruby]

Hi,

I inadvertently posted this id query to the wrong forum - some ideas have been forthcoming, but thought I'd do the right thing and put it where it's supposed to be!

The butterfly in question was found in the hills between Antalya and Fethiye in SW Turkey, at an elevation of approx 1700m on 27th May this year.

Unfortunately, what look to be the likeliest candidates are not covered in my field guides....


Thanks.... Ray

 

[stevefrance64]

Hi

I'll hedge a bet on Lycaena thersamon Lesser Fiery Copper

Steve

 

[Ruby]

Good Morning,

Seems to be a good consensus building for a Fiery Copper - but which one!!?:eek!:

Suggestions so far have been Lesser, Anatolian and Turkish... (thersamon, asabinus, ochimus...)

 

[Atricapilla]

Hi Ray,
Maybe these links might help.
http://turkeybutterflies.blogspot.com.tr/2012/07/lycaena-virgaureae.html
http://www.kelebek-turk.com/portfolio_species.php?p=41&s=265
Best of luck.

 

[Ruby]

Hmmmm - Well, I've got my Baytas book, but still not 100% definitive to my mind - it would certainly have helped had I got a pic of the underwing!

But from what I can see....

Don't think Lesser (thersamon) because the males aren't spotty enough, and the spots on the female are too large and obvious.

Turkish (ochimus) - definitely not a male, but no illustration of female, so suppose that can't be ruled out....

I think Anatolian (asabinus) remains the favourite, with my photo most closely resembling the illustration of a male... There isn't an illustration of a female upperside, but text does state 'female resembles Scarce Copper, but with smaller black spots' - which doesn't look much like my one at all... Bit worried though that the rear of the hindwing of my one seems to show 3 rows of black dots, whereas illustration in field guide shows only 2...

Not sure how variation there might be in these species anyway...


Hmmm!!!

 

[Atricapilla]

Ray,
Photo of female upper side!!!
With 3 rows of dots on hind wing!!!!

http://mczbase.mcz.harvard.edu/specimen_images/ent-lepidoptera/images/2009_08_19/IMG_015380.JPG

http://www.babochki-kavkaza.ru/inde...lycaena-asabinus--/339-lycaena-asabinus-.html
Ochimus female shown at the bottom of this page:-
http://www.babochki-kavkaza.ru/index.php/lycaenidae-/291-lycaena-ochimus--/340-lycaena-ochimus-.html.

 

[Ruby]

Hi Bob,

I expect I'm being a bit dense here, but let me see if I understand you correctly....

Your first link is to asabinus female - if so, then that doesn't look good for my photo (I don't think at any rate...)

2nd link - uppermost pic of asabinus looks good I think ( 3 rows of dots!) - but is that a male?

3rd link - no.

As I was less than 100% happy with state of play yesterday morning, I thought I would go to the horse's mouth, and contacted Dr Ahmet Baytas himself.... and he replied last night with the opinion that it IS asabinus - a male.

 

[Atricapilla]

Hi Ray,
Yes,you cracked it in the end.
The second link is a male(I believe).
Glad Ahmet was able to confirm it for you.
Another species you won't forget!!!!!
My copy of Ahmets' book should arrive today- hopefully.

 

[Ruby]

.... Interestingly enough.... the middle link above does show what Baytas refers to in his notes for male asabinus - 'round discoidal spot on forewing, with a tiny dot in the middle of the cell' - a feature which had puzzled me a bit, as I couldn't see it either in my own photo, or indeed in the illustration in the field guide!

 

[Ruby]

Hi Ray,
Yes,you cracked it in the end.
The second link is a male(I believe).
Glad Ahmet was able to confirm it for you.
Another species you won't forget!!!!!
My copy of Ahmets' book should arrive today- hopefully.

...ah yes, but he finished off his reply by warning me about variations!!!:eek!:

The problem with Turkey is that there is TOO MUCH wildlife!! Things would be a good deal easier if most of it had been decimated, like good old England!

I had a quick page through the 'skippers' section of the book last night - crikey, looking forward to trying to sort out some of THEM!

Thanks for your help anyway Bob - as you say, got there in the end!


All the best.... Ray

 

[Atricapilla]

Hopefully those links will be of help to us in the future.
I have been trying to "crack" a bush cricket species for 3 weeks ,getting close , and should get final results today.
All interesting stuff.

 

[Atricapilla]

...ah yes, but he finished off his reply by warning me about variations!!!:eek!:

The problem with Turkey is that there is TOO MUCH wildlife!! Things would be a good deal easier if most of it had been decimated, like good old England!

I had a quick page through the 'skippers' section of the book last night - crikey, looking forward to trying to sort out some of THEM!

Thanks for your help anyway Bob - as you say, got there in the end!


All the best.... Ray

And we thought bird species were difficult!!!!!!!!!

 

[Andy Hurley]

:clap:
I'm glad you got your id sorted Ray.