Hen Harriers go missing ... again (1 Viewer)

[Craig H]

The penny doesn't seem to have dropped.

What, That shooting Hen harriers is illegal? I agree

 

[John Cantelo]

Admin - thanks for correcting the typo in the heading!

I see one pro-hunting apologist on Mark Avery's blog has already suggested that it's unreasonable to assume the birds were deliberately killed and might have somehow collectively decided to decamp. Do they think we're really that stupid? Unfortunately, I can't see the newly elected government taking a firm hand with these criminals ....

 

[pppppvvvv]

From RSPB... "The first of the birds disappeared from its nest three weeks ago from the United Utilities Bowland Estate and a further two males on active nests have not been seen since last Thursday (30 April)."

So why aren't we hearing about this three weeks ago? Instead they seemed to have waited for two more to go missing before raising the alarm. I find it hard to believe the police haven't got evidence under these circumstances. I hope I never find myself relying on them for my own protection.

Also, are there any more territories in the area? or is that it for the season up there? Something smells off to me.

 

[Mickr]

I've wondered over the years - being based in Scotland - whether one answer might be a big (hopefully a thousand people or more) picnic/slow ramble across the grouse moor as soon as the day of the big shoot is known. As has been said, it is very difficult to catch a gamie or others stamping a nest, poisoning, or shooting on 'private' land. They can choose their moment to illegally destroy our pleasure.

But so can we. And there are a lot more of us than them. Is it still a million members of the RSPB alone (whatever you think of the RSPB that shows a lot of families committed enough to conservation to pay the subs). What if we asked local members/friends/contacts to find out the date of the biggest shoots and decided to go for a walk in groups - starting the middle of the night before and continuing (now with family groups) into the day with picnics etc. Some would say it was illegal to trespass (in England) but getting lost/taking a wrong turning and ending up scaring some grouse away would not excite the police overmuch, would it? If it did then the resultant publicity would bring the whole sordid business out into the open and encourage a lot more people to take sides - and I think most of them would be on our side. In Scotland 'trespassing' is not even a crime.

I would definitely be up for this and would encourage others to do the same.

 

[trw]

What, That shooting Hen harriers is illegal? I agree

Talk about taking something out of context!Any thoughts about replicating the successful Langholm project.
So far I have not heard any arguments why not.
Its not ideal but at least it is pragmatic and does the job.
So why not just go ahead and do it instead of pointlessly guarding nests whilst they kill the males elsewhere?

 

[Stonefaction]

Wouldn't the public wandering around en masse not run the risk of stumbling on Hen Harrier nests and disturbing the very birds you are trying to protect?

 

[saluki]

I know Langholm is lauded as a success, but my argument has always been it shouldn't be needed in the first place. Its quite simple. Hen Harriers (and Buzzards, Goshawks, Kestrels, Sparrowhawks etc etc) are protected. Killing them is a crime. The perpetrators should be found and treated like the criminals that they are. To me Langholm and any plan that seeks to offset the 'impacts' of HH's on a Grouse moor is equivalent to putting, say, shoplifters in a warehouse full of produce payed for by the taxpayer and letting them fill their boots without getting nicked. They can still go and nick stuff if they want to, and it doesn't address the real problem of criminality. Lets say it works for HH's, what next? Buzzards, Red Kites? Raptors are only a 'pest' when they interfere with something that humans want to have for their own. Hence any raptor or predator - and lets face it Cormorants, Goosanders, Otters, Foxes, Stoats, Weasles and anything else that eats meat falls into that camp - is regarded as a 'pest' by the hunting/shooting/fishing brigade. The fact that they existed together long before we came along is moot to them.

The answer is plain and simple - ban driven grouse shooting or at the very least introduce vicarious liability. Unfortunately the courts in this country do not mete out sentences that are anywhere near enough severe for the guilty parties to worry about.

I visited Langholm a couple of times last year, the bird life there is amazing, not just raptors and owls but passerines too. I don't see it as a way of offsetting the impact of Hen harriers on grouse moors, rather the way forward . . . hopefully. I visit plenty of overgrazed moorland in the NW of England - as I'm sure you do too Craig - most of it isn't grouse moor. Most of it is also fairly devoid of wildlife.

I'm sure many won't agree but, personally, I don't care if a dozen multi-millionairs want to stand in a line and shoot driven grouse if the result is the quality, wildlife-rich moorland that is being developed at Langholm. If this means legal predator control, supplementary feeding and habitat management, then I have no objection. It's a stark contrast to what is currently happening in Bowland.

Nothing is hidden at Langholm, there are a couple of information boards explaining exactly what is going on, what the T-perches and crow traps are for, why the heather is cut, etc. There are plenty of corvids around and, speaking to a guy who's spent many weeks up there studying SE owls, he'd yet to see a crow in the traps! I saw a couple of Stoats, but no Foxes. It really is worth a visit if you're up that way Craig.

I absolutely deplore the killing of raptors, I've been involved with birds of prey most of my life. Whatever conservationists are doing to protect Hen harriers clearly isn't working. Perhaps we should try a different tack?

Cheers
Jonathan

 

[Craig H]

Talk about taking something out of context!Any thoughts about replicating the successful Langholm project.
So far I have not heard any arguments why not.
Its not ideal but at least it is pragmatic and does the job.
So why not just go ahead and do it instead of pointlessly guarding nests whilst they kill the males elsewhere?

And also re Saluki's post.

I dont necessarily disagree that Langholm is wonderful. But, if its such a success why is it left to the 'conservationists' to drive it forward. Why don't the grouse shooting fraternity if they are so bothered about the wellbeing of the HH? I come back to my main point. Shooting Harriers is illegal. We shouldn't need any plans, strategies, partnerships or otherwise. Quite simply stop shooting them.

I have, in the past played a bit of devils advocate on here - defending (almost) people who shoot. But this has now gone beyond a joke. Sod the plans etc and just find the idiots and lock em up. If the grouse moor keepers want to sell the benefits of Langholm or wherever else great - let them fund it and promote it. But as a law abiding citizen I expect/ demand that this criminal activity is stopped and if that means taking down an entire (yet relatively minor) industry then so be it.

 

[John S. Armitage]

Persecution at its worst and deserving of all the extreme legal penalties that can be mustered if people are caught. But when are we all going to accept this is a social problem, a power struggle with the Establishment ( who are largely the owners of grouse moors ) and who feel their "rights " are being squeezed by conservation!! They've no intention of accepting harriers!!! And when is the RSPB going to become the campaigning organization of yesteryear and really take on the obvious villains of the peace. Perhaps now is the time? I've just written a piece on my Blog ( http://www.birdingodyssey.blogspot.com/ ). Please read it. We all need to support action , particularly after the Election results. Conservation and environmental matters are going to be very much poor relations in future I'm afraid ( yes, I think I am actually afraid of what is going to happen to our environment and wildlife in the future!! ).

 

[John Cantelo]

A very interesting discussion of this case can be found at https://soundcloud.com/talkingnaturally/response-to-hen-harrier-deaths-may-2015

 

[Nutcracker]

Wouldn't the public wandering around en masse not run the risk of stumbling on Hen Harrier nests and disturbing the very birds you are trying to protect?

Should be fledged and dispersing by 12 August, which is the earliest date a demonstration would be held.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

How does brood management work?

Nesting hen harriers can take significant numbers of grouse to feed their own chicks. Should a harrier build a nest within 10km of another, the harrier chicks in the second nest would be temporarily removed to reduce pressure on the grouse population. Any harrier chicks temporarily removed to aviaries would be released back to suitable habitat once fledged. This has not yet been trialled in the UK but has been successfully demonstrated in France, where lowland hen harriers nest in cereal crops.
Brood management is an approach that can both boost the hen harrier population and give keepers the confidence to allow hen harriers to settle on driven grouse moors. RSPB Conservation Director Martin Harper has now questioned when, not if, brood management should begin. It is hoped, as this is an internationally recognised conservation tool, that this can be resolved quickly. It is a shame that the Defra-led recovery plan was not launched before this year’s breeding season; will it be launched before the next one?

Present situation in England is not sustainable. Fact is Hen Harrier are going to be shot on Grouse moors and it ain't going to change whether it's illegal or not. Maybe brood management is the way forward.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

http://www.gwct.org.uk/wildlife/research/birds/raptors/hen-harrier/joint-recovery-plan/

How does brood management work?

Nesting hen harriers can take significant numbers of grouse to feed their own chicks. Should a harrier build a nest within 10km of another, the harrier chicks in the second nest would be temporarily removed to reduce pressure on the grouse population. Any harrier chicks temporarily removed to aviaries would be released back to suitable habitat once fledged. This has not yet been trialled in the UK but has been successfully demonstrated in France, where lowland hen harriers nest in cereal crops.
Brood management is an approach that can both boost the hen harrier population and give keepers the confidence to allow hen harriers to settle on driven grouse moors. RSPB Conservation Director Martin Harper has now questioned when, not if, brood management should begin. It is hoped, as this is an internationally recognised conservation tool, that this can be resolved quickly. It is a shame that the Defra-led recovery plan was not launched before this year’s breeding season; will it be launched before the next one?

Present situation in England is not sustainable. Fact is Hen Harrier are going to be shot on Grouse moors and it ain't going to change whether it's illegal or not. Maybe brood management is the way forward.

 

[Craig H]

I have an issue with the GWCT Page. It states there is an issue between grouse and harriers. No there isn't. There is an issue between keepers and moor owners and harriers.

As soon as anyone from the RSPB accepts brood management there will be a rush to employ it on virtually any other raptor species (applications for buzzard control have already been received by DEFRA). All of that aside Mayo, there is not a high enough density of HH's in England to even begin to worry about another HH within 10km. Once the population is high enough, well it shouldn't happen then either as it will be the thin end of the wedge.

 

[Mayo Corncrake]

I have an issue with the GWCT Page. It states there is an issue between grouse and harriers. No there isn't. There is an issue between keepers and moor owners and harriers.

As soon as anyone from the RSPB accepts brood management there will be a rush to employ it on virtually any other raptor species (applications for buzzard control have already been received by DEFRA). All of that aside Mayo, there is not a high enough density of HH's in England to even begin to worry about another HH within 10km. Once the population is high enough, well it shouldn't happen then either as it will be the thin end of the wedge.

I agree that the densities of HH in England are shamefully low at present and Hen Harriers provide no threat to Shooting interests. That's the way Shooting businesses want to keep it. The will keep shooting Hen Harrier that nest in grouse moors. The only way it will stop is if they think the Hen Harrier will not affect profits. Brood management can be that way. The present situation does not help Harriers

 

[Jimmybirder]

We all need to support action , particularly after the Election results. Conservation and environmental matters are going to be very much poor relations in future I'm afraid ( yes, I think I am actually afraid of what is going to happen to our environment and wildlife in the future!! ).

I too fear the next 5 years. Its clear the election was a great result for those who want to turn the clock back to the Victorian killing fields. Will be interesting to see who gets the Agri/Environment gig. If the likes of Benyon rears their ugly head again, the outcomes for currently protected species could be very grim indeed:-C

 

[Craig H]

I agree that the densities of HH in England are shamefully low at present and Hen Harriers provide no threat to Shooting interests. That's the way Shooting businesses want to keep it. The will keep shooting Hen Harrier that nest in grouse moors. The only way it will stop is if they think the Hen Harrier will not affect profits. Brood management can be that way. The present situation does not help Harriers

I disagree. If the law actually punished people severely enough, it would have an impact.

Lets say brood management is employed for 10-12 years. The HH population explodes and we have lots of occupied territories. What then? There'll be a call for a cull. I'm afraid no one will ever be able to persuade me that in this scenario brood management is a viable option. The way it works in France is a genuine conservation effort where no one is purposefully going out of their way to persecute a bird. That is a huge difference.

 

[John Cantelo]

For brood management to work first we have to have some Hen Harriers to provide the broods to manage. Even if we did have sufficient birds to work with, they would still wonder onto grouse moors (silly buggers can't read) and get themselves shot. Such a scheme will not only fail solve the key problem (illegal persecution), but also allow the shooting industry to pretend they're doing something about it when in reality they're laughing up their sleeves.

On another tack, has the Hawk and Owl Trust released a statement yet?

 

[Craig H]

For brood management to work first we have to have some Hen Harriers to provide the broods to manage. Even if we did have sufficient birds to work with, they would still wonder onto grouse moors (silly buggers can't read) and get themselves shot. Such a scheme will not only fail solve the key problem (illegal persecution), but also allow the shooting industry to pretend they're doing something about it when in reality they're laughing up their sleeves.

On another tack, has the Hawk and Owl Trust released a statement yet?

Precisely my point John. And never mind the H&O Trust, what about the Moorland association, BASC, GWCT. All very quiet.

 

[Boom]

Apparently the RSPB are offering a £10,000 reward for information leading to the detritus being convicted.

As you say though Craig, the punishment as it currently stands does not remotely fit the crime.