ID help - Dachau, Germany - II (3 Viewers)

[mihir]

Request Id help for the following photographed on 30-Apr-2023

1 & 2) Short-toed Treecreeper?
3 & 4) Blackcap?
5) Hooded crow?
6) Eurasian Jay?

 

[Val35]

Agree on all except 3 & 4, they are Marsh Tits

 

[mihir]

Agree on all except 3 & 4, they are Marsh Tits

thanks a lot!

 

[Schneppe]

Hi Mihir!

1 & 2 = I think so yes. Short-toed Treecreepers do look a lot like Eurasian Treecreepers, only their calls and song are different. But yes, looks like Short-toed Treecreeper.

3 & 4 = No. Marsh tit (Poecile palustris).

5 = Yes.

6 = Yes.

Cheers, Fabian

 

[mihir]

Hi Mihir!

1 & 2 = I think so yes. Short-toed Treecreepers do look a lot like Eurasian Treecreepers, only their calls and song are different. But yes, looks like Short-toed Treecreeper.

3 & 4 = No. Marsh tit (Poecile palustris).

5 = Yes.

6 = Yes.

Cheers, Fabian

thanks

 

[Schneppe]

You are welcome!
Val35 was faster though....

Cheers!

 

[lou salomon]

is that Hooded Crow really from Dachau? would be a good record for Bavaria.

 

[mihir]

I rechecked the dates. Sorry I made a mistake there. The hooded crow and eurasian jay were clicked in Berlin.

 

[01101001]

I expected them to be Marsh Tits, but why not Willow Tit for (at least) photo 4 because of the pale panel (they shouldn't be so unidentifiably similar on the continent)? (Otherwise, I get the slim, small-headed jizz as seen esp. in photo 3.)

EDIT: What if they are different individuals: the bird in photo 3 has apparently no bib, while the bird in photo 4 has a large bib (I'm not trying to cite the discredited--I think--bib size feature, only pointing out the difference)?

 

[Val35]

I expected them to be Marsh Tits, but why not Willow Tit for (at least) photo 4 because of the pale panel (they shouldn't be so unidentifiably similar on the continent)? (Otherwise, I get the slim, small-headed jizz as seen esp. in photo 3.)

EDIT: What if they are different individuals: the bird in photo 3 has apparently no bib, while the bird in photo 4 has a large bib (I'm not trying to cite the discredited--I think--bib size feature, only pointing out the difference)?

I don't see a white wing panel, I think that area of the wing is just more in the light than the rest so it appears a little paler but if you zoom in you'll see no wing panel 😉
Besides, the bird seems to show little amount of white in the head compared to a Willow Tit.
And also I think Willow Tit would be very uncommon for this area ?

 

[01101001]

Let's say the panel is subjective (although I see it even in zoomed-in pictures); I haven't heard about the white-in-head criterion, at least not among the shortlist of the truly reliable ones. This is not the optimal angle to judge, but I think this bird is stockier, shorter necked and with a bigger head than the other.

EDIT: A dirty wash to the underparts (flanks and belly) seen in pic. 4 but not pic. 3 could further suggest Willow Tit?

Maybe someone could lighten up those photos a bit because I have some trouble reliably judging the features from above and--most importantly--neck to cheek contrast?
(Attached is the paper I was looking for.)

 

[01101001]

Could they both be Willow Tits?

(exposure may be off because I have no experience with adjusting the levels; I used the first suggestion in the tab labelled 'strong' or something similar)

No Marsh Tits displayed warm buff tones to the neck sides, while warm buff was present to some degree on 59% of Willow Tits.

(from the paper above)

 

[Frank van Drogen]

Far from an expert, but never seen such 'pink' March or Willow Tits. More likely Willow than Marsh, though.

 

[tconzemi]

From the cited paper above for Marsh Tit: White cheek contrastswith grey-brown necksides behind the earcoverts; for Willow Tit: No contrast betweenwhitish cheek andwhitish neck sides; maybe warm buff suffusiontowards mantle
plus white edge of upper mandible, no wing panel make it Marsh Tit

 

[mihir]

Have brightened the images. Does it help?

 

[01101001]

From the cited paper above for Marsh Tit: White cheek contrastswith grey-brown necksides behind the earcoverts; for Willow Tit: No contrast betweenwhitish cheek andwhitish neck sides; maybe warm buff suffusiontowards mantle
plus white edge of upper mandible, no wing panel make it Marsh Tit

Agree with the first photo, but what about the second one (I'm now operating on those more aesthetically lightened versions)?

pale wing panel + no contrast between the cheek and neck sides with the exception of the diffuse buff collar; re the bill, the whole edge of the upper mandible is highlighted (or maybe not, IDK)

EDIT:

Instead, Willow Tits frequently show a subtle colour gradient from the ear-coverts to the sides of the neck, with an increasing warm buff suffusion. Where the cheek meets the mantle, the warm buff suffusion can contrast sharply with the grey-brown of the mantle (fig. 2b). In the field, the Willow Tit appears to have a larger, more uniform whitish cheek area

On Marsh Tits, the ear-coverts are a clean whitish colour that frequently contrasts with a pale, cold grey-brown wash on the side of the neck (fig. 1b). The transition between the white ear-coverts and grey-brown neck is often quite distinct, following the curve of the ear-coverts themselves (figs. 2a & 3c). This results in many Marsh Tits appearing to have a much smaller white ‘face’ than Willow Tits.

 

[Richard Prior]

As Tom has explained, they are definitely Marsh Tits.

 

[01101001]

From what I am able to infer, previous answers appear to include an understated suggestion that the second bird could be a juvenile* Marsh Tit with fresh plumage** (the former implies the latter, obviously, but it's convenient for me to repeat this information in order to give two seperate references).

*Does not apply to juveniles, which show clean whitish cheek and neck sides in both species until majority of post-juvenile moult is completed by September.

**Some authors urge caution, however, stressing that worn Willow Tits may show no pale panel, while fresh Marsh Tits may show a subtle pale panel (Harrap & Quinn 1995; Gosler & Clement 2007; BWP).

Correct?

The timing of Marsh Tit's breeding calendar does appear to make it possible: Marsh Tit - Poecile palustris - Media Search - Macaulay Library and eBird.

EDIT: I also attach another source with pictures.

EDIT 2: A detailed distribution map of both species in Dachau district between March and May 2023 (inclusive).

 

[lou salomon]

in pic 7363 you can see the pale upper mandible spot of Marsh Tit.

 

[01101001]

Since adults and 2cy spring birds should have worn plumage (faded edges) at the end of April, can we say something about the age of this bird or is it down to individual variation?