Ignorant Game Keepers (1 Viewer)

[Nightranger]

Ian,

PLEASE read posting #53 and #111 - and then ask yourself if you have answered the question. I am referring only to the comments made by Mike Everett relating to the list of animals and birds culled by the RSPB at Abernethy (certainly not just foxes) and the way this was conveniently passed off as being because they were, in his words, 'comperitors for space' in a magazine interview. I have said nothing more or nothing less about it - and certainly not the variety of references, including locations, you are trying to put into my mouth!

I stated quite clearly that the views of Mike were made several years ago and may not be current policy. You want proof that this is the case well what more than the fact that Mike retired last year and please do me the favour of not trying to demonise him. If you had met him you know he was the most helpful people you could ever hope to know. As for putting words into your mouth, is that not what you are trying to do with me? The RSPB does NOT have a policy against pigeon racing and game shooting - what it does have is a policy against illegal raptor persecution. You are deliberately trying to muddy the waters because YOU want the right to decide what should be culled/controlled/persecuted. Now what part of this message is giving you trouble? Can I ask if you go fox hunting or have ever Larsen trapped Corvids? This is not entirely relevant but remember, that is the stone you are casting at the RSPB.

 

[The Tom]

I stated quite clearly that the views of Mike were made several years ago and may not be current policy. You want proof that this is the case well what more than the fact that Mike retired last year and please do me the favour of not trying to demonise him. If you had met him you know he was the most helpful people you could ever hope to know. As for putting words into your mouth, is that not what you are trying to do with me? The RSPB does NOT have a policy against pigeon racing and game shooting - what it does have is a policy against illegal raptor persecution. You are deliberately trying to muddy the waters because YOU want the right to decide what should be culled/controlled/persecuted. Now what part of this message is giving you trouble? Can I ask if you go fox hunting or have ever Larsen trapped Corvids? This is not entirely relevant but remember, that is the stone you are casting at the RSPB.

Hi Ian
Not trying to muddy the waters but according to the RSPB website the culling of crows between 1994 and 1996 had a beneficial effect on the number of Capercallie and therefore was resumed .
However the cull of Foxes showed no assosiation to Capercaillie numbers but a Swedish study did and the cull was resumed .
I think this information may be a couple of years old , perhaps someone could update me is the culling of Foxes and Crows still the RSPB policy at Abernethy ?

 

[Nightranger]

Hi Ian
Not trying to muddy the waters but according to the RSPB website the culling of crows between 1994 and 1996 had a beneficial effect on the number of Capercallie and therefore was resumed .
However the cull of Foxes showed no assosiation to Capercaillie numbers but a Swedish study did and the cull was resumed .
I think this information may be a couple of years old , perhaps someone could update me is the culling of Foxes and Crows still the RSPB policy at Abernethy ?

I am not sure that policy is the right word and that is (I think) why this topic has got into such a muddle. I have been deliberately leaving my wording short because I am well aware that Anthony is doing so. A management plan for one reserve is not the same as saying it is RSPB policy. You quite rightly illustrate that the RSPB considers peer-reviewed research but Anthony does not seem to appreciate this point. He would rather quote comments made in response to a question and attribute them to RSPB policy. He is also neatly steering us away from the real question anyway in that fox and corvid control is legal under UK law whereas raptor control is not. This is the cornerstone of what he is saying and he has brought the subject up to switch tacks.

I am aware that foxes are the one case where a predator has been implicated in the decline of a species (in the UK). It is special circumstances but grey partridge populations are becoming fragmented and it is known that foxes are causing further pressures on individual populations. This is not a universal threat to grey partridges and there is definitely no call for a general cull but it illustrates there is awareness of the problem. Cappers face a number of threats and any control would be aimed at stopping the decline reaching an untenable position. Control is expensive (apart from anything else) so if there is an excuse to stop then it will be taken. Capper numbers are critically low at the moment but believe me, there is discussion in a wider sense of how we go in keeping a species alive. The classic example is ptarmigan as a possible species under threat from Global Warming (in the UK) and it may not ultimately be possible to save them. Rest assured if that was the case for cappers too then we would have to let them go (reluctantly) but we are not at that stage yet.

In answer to your question, I am not sure if control is still in place at Abernethy but you are entitled to ask the question at the reserve or with Scottish HQ. I am not going to research this for you (that is not meant to sound abrupt BTW) because it would be unfair. I approach these forums in the same way that I approach the BBC forums and my responses would have been the same before I joined the RSPB. It may interest everyone to know that I do not go away and look into RSPB information in detail but debate from my personal knowledge (as a graduate zoologist). I have been aware of the stance (in detail) of quite a few conservation organisations for a long time and this is where Mr Morton trips up. He wants to put me on the spot as an RSPB employee but that is not why I contribute here. I guess I have now lost the battle to avoid posting as an RSPB employee and that disappoints me because I am here primarily as a bird watcher and secondly as a zoologist. If Anthony Morton and anyone else puts me on the spot in this way then I have no choice but to leave the forums. This is not a case of spitting the dummy but because I would be bound by having to post down directed RSPB policy lines because it may be seen that I was speaking for the society. All that I have done so far is well away from that because I spend 5 days per week as one of a team of frontline representatives for the RSPB. Therefore, I am not going to go away and find discreet elements of management policy for an individual reserve. I am not trying to hide anything either - the RSPB is a charitable organisation so it is accountable (despite what Anthony seems to think) but be aware (everyone please) that Ian Peters BSc (zoology - UCNW Bangor) is speaking here and not Ian Peters RSPB.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Ian,

Re your posting #141, you are the one working himself into a lather and, it seems to me, it is you who is also muddying the water. All I have being trying to elicit from you is what, in your opinion, is the difference between culling animals/birds because they are 'competitors for space' rather than because they are 'predators', which was the distinction Mike Everett made when the RSPB took over Abernethy. In my view there is no difference, but perhaps I'm missing the point. And despite your diversionary tactics, pigeon racing and
game shooting hasn't got anything to do with my question, and neither has fox hunting or Larsen traps. However if it will put your mind at rest, I neither hunt, shoot or use Larsen traps. And I'm certainly not casting stones at the RSPB as you put it, just trying to get a straightforward answer to what I felt was a simple enough question. Perhaps you should have been a politician, because they never seem to give a straight answer either!

 

[Nightranger]

Ian,

Re your posting #141, you are the one working himself into a lather and, it seems to me, it is you who is also muddying the water. All I have being trying to elicit from you is what, in your opinion, is the difference between culling animals/birds because they are 'competitors for space' rather than because they are 'predators', which was the distinction Mike Everett made when the RSPB took over Abernethy. In my view there is no difference, but perhaps I'm missing the point. And despite your diversionary tactics, pigeon racing and
game shooting has got anything to do with my question, and neither has fox hunting or Larsen traps. However if it will put your mind at rest, I neither hunt, shoot or use Larsen traps. And I'm certainly not casting stones at the RSPB as you put it, just trying to get a straightforward answer to what I felt was a simple enough question. Perhaps you should have been a politician, because they never give a straight answer either!

Anthony, please refer to my response to The Tom. I am not going to research responses for you if you want a response on this issue then speak to RSPB Scottish HQ. BTW matey, game shooting is part of the issue because that is what this thread is about so cut the footnote insults if you want me to take you seriously. I do not know how to say it any clearer - I am not here to debate RSPB policy because:

A. That is not my job at the RSPB.
B. I have no idea how long ago the so-called quote was made.
C. I have no idea what the context of the response was anyway, you seem to say it was an answer to a direct question and that changes the complex.
D. I graduated in zoology long before I came to work for the RSPB and I was aware of the society remit years ago. That is how I choose to debate with you and it would be the same if I was siding with any conservation organisation.
E. It is clear you are looking for a direct quote from Ian Peters - RSPB so that you can use it against me rather than debating anything with Ian Peters BSc (zoology).

Would you care to confirm whether it is true that you are a member of SOS, RPRA or any related organisation? I could not care less but clearly, other contributors here seem to think you arrived with an agenda. You put me on a spot so I do not see why I should let you off.

 

[Steve]

Gentlemen one of the Golden rules of a forum is "play the post" NOT "the poster" a debate is far healthier than a flame war. It would be a shame to close this thread.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Gentlemen one of the Golden rules of a forum is "play the post" NOT "the poster" a debate is far healthier than a flame war. It would be a shame to close this thread.

Steve,

Message received and understood. Not wishing to stand accused of running away, however, I am not a member of SOS, but I am a member of the RPRA. Both these points have been explained previously.

 

[The Tom]

I am not sure that policy is the right word and that is (I think) why this topic has got into such a muddle. I have been deliberately leaving my wording short because I am well aware that Anthony is doing so. A management plan for one reserve is not the same as saying it is RSPB policy.


Ian
Just two points my question was about RSPB policy at one reserve not general policy.Secondly I did not ask you personally to answer my query but asked if anybody had any info .
Thank you for your reply and I shall indeed now do some more research as you have suggested .

 

[Nightranger]

Ian
Just two points my question was about RSPB policy at one reserve not general policy.Secondly I did not ask you personally to answer my query but asked if anybody had any info .
Thank you for your reply and I shall indeed now do some more research as you have suggested .

No problems, I didn't want to sound abrupt but the RSPB is a big organisation with regard to reserves and regional issues. I don't want to go into too much detail because it would over-simplify things but the reserves are managed on individual guidelines. Anthony was implying that the policy at Abernethy was general RSPB policy and I hope I have at least demonstrated that is not the case. This is a very important point within the context of the discussion.

 

[Nightranger]

Steve,

Message received and understood. Not wishing to stand accused of running away, however, I am not a member of SOS, but I am a member of the RPRA. Both these points have been explained previously.

Anthony, I agree we are probably getting a little carried away here so shall we agree to disagree and let this topic go (at least for now)? I do not want to get into the ethics of organisations that 'oppose' the RSPB because I have no objections. I sometimes think there is a time when a few individuals get over-emotional about issues they see as important and this prevents organisations from working together.

 

[BORIS]

The countryside that we enjoy is carefully balanced, we maybe dont realise it at first, but it is and a lot of man hours go in to creating this balance, the problem lies in when the balance is 'tipped' slightly in favour of a certain species .......[we know which ones!] But i think they still have the balance about right......please dont all fall out with me at once! i'm new here!

 

[Anthony Morton]

Anthony, I agree we are probably getting a little carried away here so shall we agree to disagree and let this topic go (at least for now)? I do not want to get into the ethics of organisations that 'oppose' the RSPB because I have no objections. I sometimes think there is a time when a few individuals get over-emotional about issues they see as important and this prevents organisations from working together.

Ian,

My apologies for the delay in replying - an oversight on my part I'm afraid. That said, I agree totally with your comments here. You are quite right, it's all too easy just to stand at opposite end of the field and lob rocks at each other. Mildly amusing for the onlookers perhaps, but I'm sure it would be much more rewarding for everyone if we explored the middle ground - however small it may appear to be at present.

Anthony

 

[Nightranger]

Ian,

My apologies for the delay in replying - an oversight on my part I'm afraid. That said, I agree totally with your comments here. You are quite right, it's all too easy just to stand at opposite end of the field and lob rocks at each other. Mildly amusing for the onlookers perhaps, but I'm sure it would be much more rewarding for everyone if we explored the middle ground - however small it may appear to be at present.

Anthony

No problems Anthony. B

 

[BORIS]

As has been said on this thread already ............lets draw a line under it!

 

[CJW]

Done.