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Is this horse chestnut leaf miner? (1 Viewer)

Surreybirder

Ken Noble
According to Mike Wall's site, www.bike2nature.co.uk ,366a Cameraria ohridella (Deschka & Dimic, 1986) is spreading rapidly since its first UK sighting in 2002. (Note that it was unknown in Europe until it was discovered in Macedonia in 1995.) I found the attached leaf locally. Is this the 'collared dove' of the moth world?
Ken
 

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Surreybirder said:
According to Mike Wall's site, www.bike2nature.co.uk ,366a Cameraria ohridella (Deschka & Dimic, 1986) is spreading rapidly since its first UK sighting in 2002. (Note that it was unknown in Europe until it was discovered in Macedonia in 1995.) I found the attached leaf locally. Is this the 'collared dove' of the moth world?
Ken

A friend,who visits Poland three or four times a year, produced a similar leaf at our last Lowestoft Field Club meeting. The trees in Poland are having a hard time with this pest. They are eating the first leaves and the trees try to produce more only to be attacked again. The leaves then fall and the larvae remain in the leaf litter to start the cycle over again. A sample was brought from the Diss area of Norfolk, this was the first the friend had seen in Britain. I told him to contact the South Norfolk District Council tree officer who had not even heard of this threat. I will be talking to my local tree officer tommorow to find out if she is aware of this problem.
Ivan
 
Ivan

Warning, do not cry wolf, wolf too loudly, there are alot of chemical companies and tree surgery firms only too willing to make a buck out of something which spoils our visual green but has not once been proven to killed a tree. Fact. Full Stop.

Yes, Ken that does look like it. The Collar neck dove population has stabilised and found it's niche. Let this do so also, as the alternative is Dimilin alias 'Agent Orange' for the moth world. What goes up, can drift around and always also comes down.

The Polish example would have been interesting to see, complete defoiliation can occur, but often as not there is a secondary reason. The picture is confused here in Vienna because salt damage is very similar to an untrained eye, and people associate the browning with the leafminer, and next spring on goes, or as is more often the case now thank goodness, on went the chemical, past tense. Whereas the reality is the salt trace elements deter the leaf miners, but the browning only occurs later in the year, and by then everyone has forgotten the tree didn't have the miner in spring, and then look on the self made devastation that the miner never could make.

When you talk to your local council people, tell them it could be a visual problem, but for the sake of all sanity and the enviroment, leave the bloody chemicals in the shed, and preferably in the chemical firms one at that. Secondly send them to our institute for practical impartial advice, there are alternatives to Dimilin, in the form of phermone traps. And thirdly, if the tree dies, it was going to die anyway from what ever fungus it had.

Take care of your local environment, there are more things going on than meet the eye, and if you value your moth counts, find out what chemical, or method of treatment they propose to use and when, eg at what level of infestation. GB has a chance to learn from Europe, and lesson number one is stop any knee jerk reaction before it starts, step back from the problem, and take a bigger overview of things. We are not losing trees from it

Tea box session over :scribe:

Cheers

Jim

P.S. BTW remember Horse Chestnut is none native to Britain, and is so called because the nuts were used as winter fodder. Are people so interested in saving a none native tree at the cost of other British native species? It isn't even native to Austria. You can fell every chestnut tree in Britain at no loss to the environment, and replace with native cherries for visual flowering. Sorry got back on the soap box there. ;)
 
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Hi, Jim,
I take it that you are not a great conker fan then ;)
Personally, I'm not planning to tell anyone other than our county recorder about the moth. I just wanted to confirm the ID.
Cheers
Ken
 
Ivan said:
I told him to contact the South Norfolk District Council tree officer who had not even heard of this threat. I will be talking to my local tree officer tommorow to find out if she is aware of this problem.
Ivan


Good Morning Ken,

I am a great conker fan, I have to be with my nose size!

The size of the chestnuts here lying around unplayed with, unbelievable, wish I were back at school with a boot string full of them, wasn't a 'tangle six' a great way to to get your finger a good jolting!!

The above part is were my concern starts(ed), what threat what problem?

We introduce a non native specie several hunderd years ago, and because of conkertime feel we could be about to lose something we should never have had in the first place? The fact that the miner took so long to jump the gap amazes me, as pests from non native american species jumped the gap quicker.

From the experience from what I have seen, and what downstairs has told me from their first hand experiences and conclusions, the problem has been ignorance and the real threat a lack of continued understanding. I have never been known for diplomat skills at putting a point across in fancy wrapping, so take no offence Ivan if it appears blunt, I wasn't born with the ability of flowery speech. ;)

Cheers

Jim
 
Wandered Scot said:
Good Morning Ken,

I am a great conker fan, I have to be with my nose size!

The size of the chestnuts here lying around unplayed with, unbelievable, wish I were back at school with a boot string full of them, wasn't a 'tangle six' a great way to to get your finger a good jolting!!

Kids aren't allowed to play conkers any more as it's violent/competitive - makes you :-C !

Horse Chestnuts are often riddled with a fungus, which can look very much like ohridella mining damage, and also oft infects virtually every leaf. HCs are therefore I think quite used to being 'invaded' and as Jim says the tree doesn't seem to be long-term harmed. Still, it's strange that such an obvious leaf-miner suddenly appeared in Europe, from an unknown source - it would have been spotted previously.
 
MikeWall said:
Kids aren't allowed to play conkers any more as it's violent/competitive - makes you :-C !

it's strange that such an obvious leaf-miner suddenly appeared in Europe, from an unknown source - it would have been spotted previously.
They should ban acorns and conkers from dropping on your car, while they are being so Health & Safety conscious. Loud 'clonk' made me jump!
But if it was only first described in 1986, that would suggest that it 'exploded' from somewhere pretty remote very rapidly. It had to be first seen somewhere in Europe, so why not Macedonia?
Ken
 
Surreybirder said:
I notice that the forestry people say that the damage is 'unsightly' but doesn't harm the tree. Though they then go on to worry that it might do!
Ken

Yes Ken, might do

Quote from link 'However, it is possible that differences in climate or interactions with other pests and diseases might lead to greater impact' as I said yesterday the only evidence we have on a tree declining or dying has been invariably due to other factors. Like any pest specie there may be a link to them aggrivating an existing problem, but at this point there is no evidence of virus or other carrier diseases for plant health, (in comparison to the Dutch Elm Disease), or that the early loss of leafs has led to a tree dying.

This year I saw a catch 22 with the alternative red chestnut varieties. They have replaced several Alley trees in a large park near us, with good sized Standards at sometime in the last 3 years. In spring when they should have been in full leaf, they were half stripped due to Winter Moth larvae, and looked no better than a browned off Horsechestnut. It is possibly a one off, but I am going to watch it from now.

The advice to burn or incinerate the leafs is definitely good to reduce the problem. The first year I was here (2001), I worked with a tree surgery company and in May we worked overhours to try and complete the Dimilin spraying programme within May. 4 wagon mounted dusting canons full time, and we were not alone. The drift factor of the particles from the canon is phenomenal, you have to blast the trees some as high as 20m from ground level, and if a wind whips in, you don't have a chance in being enviromentally friendly.

Would I do it again? If I had to yes, because if someone is hell bent on doing it, and a goverment is not banning it, then better that I try to help reduce drift than let somone who has no interest in what the consequences of what they are doing, do it. Some may judge that having not been in the situation, but conservation is a practical activity, and there is an old farming saying which is relevant for most situations, You won't plough a field, 'turning it over' in your mind.

You won't stop spraying here, until we prove it is a waste of time and effort,or we replace with alternative trees, and as we are a tourist capital of the World, the local goverment need green trees, and will/must pay accordingly, until the problem is resolved.

Ken, may I suggest you put that link in your URL's, that is a very fair link, with much better wording than my explanation of visual impact yesterday.

And Mike, the world is becoming a sadder place if after a week of dualing you can't have a 'sixty sixer' to go home with! Why does the funniest looking one not go large Brian!?

Cheers

Jim
 
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Surreybirder said:
I found the attached leaf locally. Is this the 'collared dove' of the moth world?
Ken
BTW, the ID was confirmed.
While I'm on leaf-mines, I found an example of Phyllocnistis unipunctella the other day. The mines are very subtle in that they look very like the trail left by a snail. My CR is quite excited because the leaf was from a form of poplar (possibly Balsam poplar) which is apparently pretty unusual for this species of moth (I think it's normally found on aspen). It's been confirmed by John Langmaid so should be pretty safe ;)
See http://www.leafmines.co.uk/html/Lepidoptera/P.unipunctella.htm
Ken
 
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Certainly seem to be on the rise. Had a few in the trap last year, and one day in September this year had over 50. Went to Bushy Park last weekend, and almost every Conker leaf had several mines in it.

Here's a pic, and also something else interesting from Bushy Park - another alien species, but one that gave my GF more of a scare than the conker trees!
 

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