Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (10 Viewers)

[Edward woodwood]

I was only looking in North America and at vertebrates in general, in keeping with the question.

kool

apologies

Tim

 

[Xenospiza]

Indeed, nothing in NA (keep looking for that Guadalupe Storm-Petrel though!)
Some rediscoveries from around the world in the last 10 years or so; please look for details yourself (e.g. worldtwitch!). Some info & details by heart, so might be wrong!
Bruijn’s Brush-turkey (2001, as a meal, breeding mounds now found); Edwards’s Pheasant (2001, I've no info); Sumatran Ground-Cuckoo (1997, camera trap? must be hard); Indigo-winged Parrot (2002, no-go area); Congo Bay-Owl (1996 or so, captured, no-go area); Colorful Puffleg (discovered 1967, rediscovered 1997, possible); White-masked Antbird (recently published, viewable); Beck's Petrel (photo); New Zealand Storm-Petrel (viewable); Stresemann’s Bristlefront (1995, lost again); Pelzeln’s Tody-Tyrant (locally common along Rio Negro); “Bolivian Swallow-tailed Cotinga” (I have no info); Kinglet Calyptura (1997, 2005, lost again); Long-legged Thicketbird (2003, 12 pairs); Rusty-throated Wren-Babbler (2005, must be hard); Pohnpei Starling (1995, collected); Príncipe Thrush (1997, viewable); Damar Flycatcher (2001, common); Cherry-throated Tanager (viewable); Tumaco Seedeater (recent, difficult?); Cone-billed Tanager (photo, viewable); São Tomé Grosbeak (photo, still difficult?); Berlepsch's Parotia (2005, check BF).

 

[naples]

and 30 years ago it wasn't prob.a.ble that Florida Panthers survived

 

[IBWO_Agnostic]

and 30 years ago it wasn't prob.a.ble that Florida Panthers survived

What are you talking about? The Florida Panther has always been KNOWN to exist.

They were actively studying mortality rates in 1978.
http://www.panthersociety.org/mortality.html

and a chronology
http://www.defenders.org/wildlife/new/bigcats/panther/history2.html#2

 

[70ivorybill78]

Regarding new North American vertebrate species, here is a convoluted one

Cottontail species in the Appalachian Mountains that was formerly believed to be New England cottontails (Sylvilagus transitionalis) is found through DNA testing and cranial studies to be a "new species", the Appalachian cottontail (Sylvilagus obscurus). This was apparently regarded as a true species and not just a race or subspecies by the state of Kentucky.

 

[MMinNY]

My mistake as to the Red Wolf. I apologize for my faulty memory. I thought there was a brief period when they were believed extinct. I just met with someone involved in the reintroduction program on another matter, but that was before the question was raised, so I didn't ask it.

I agree that there's a vast difference between the Sonoma Tree Vole and the Ivory-Bill, but this all emerged from the question of whether the rediscovery of species believed to be extinct is extraordinary. Piltdown woman narrowed the question down to North American vertebrates. I've come up with a number of examples that show it is not extraordinary -- certainly not in the Sagan sense -- indeed that it is a relatively common occurrence.

In some ways, the case of the Cozumel Thrasher is more interesting, although it was only believed extinct for less than a decade, and it may now be extinct after Hurricane Wilma. The reason it's relevant is that Cozumel is a very popular tourist and birding spot, and recent sightings have been from resorts and golf clubs. Still, it hasn't been easy to get confirmation:

http://oikos.villanova.edu/cozumel/status.html

Reads a bit like a compressed history of the IBWO over the last 60 years.

Also, I think Andigena's point about the Robust Redhorse can also be applied to the Greenback Cutthroat Trout.

While it is true that Pilty asked about vertebrates, there is a big difference between a North American bird (that hundreds of thousands of North American birders would recognize when they saw it) and a Sonoma Tree Vole that probably only a hundred North American mammalogists would recognize in the hand.

BTW, Red Wolves were never thought to be extinct. Members of the last packs in the Southeast were taken in and bred and the genetics was closely monitored due to an influx of coyote genes. These were then reintroduced to a couple islands in the southeast, and coastal North Carolina.

Also Eskimo Curlew can be a difficult ID in the field. It is probable that birds persisted and were overlooked by birders.

I don't think this proves anything. But what the hell, we're not about 'proving' anything on this forum are we?

Remember when the announcement first came out. They really played up the fact that this area was so remote. Then we find out the sightings were 100 yards from a highway bridge, the area is heavily hunted, there are miles of ATV trails (White River NWR), there has been Swainson's Warbler researchers there for years, they've had people doing Christmas Bird Counts for years.....in other words, not so isolated and remote (and yes, I have been to both refuges, so this IS personal experience). So, yes, I do think that while it is POSSIBLE for an IBWO population to persist in the truly remote areas of the southeast, I just don't find it that PROBABLE.

prob·a·ble
1. Likely to happen or to be true: War seemed probable in 1938. The home team, far ahead, is the probable winner.
2. Likely but uncertain; plausible.

pos·si·ble
1. Capable of happening, existing, or being true without contradicting proven facts, laws, or circumstances.
2. Capable of occurring or being done without offense to character, nature, or custom.

 

[Xenospiza]

What are you talking about?

I just looked it up, and this was the situation in 1972:
http://www.panthersociety.org/decades.html

 

[70ivorybill78]

Post 4682
BTW, Red Wolves were never thought to be extinct. Members of the last packs in the Southeast were taken in and bred and the genetics was closely monitored due to an influx of coyote genes. These were then reintroduced to a couple islands in the southeast, and coastal North Carolina.
---------------

At one point in time (1980s, I believe) the Red Wolf was indeed thought to be potentially extinct or in immediate danger of extinction in its pure form due to hybridization with coyotes. In having seen photos of several that were taken into the breeding program, there is an excellent chance (despite DNA testing) due to phenotypical appearances of some, that there may still be some coyote contamination in some of these animals.

Regarding the recent Red wolf releases, sadly, coyote hybridization has been documented as again happening, resulting in at least some trapping and removal of coyotes. It is interesting that this species does not stay true to its own, maybe the hybrization is occurring as young Red wolves spread into new "wolf free" areas where they no longer have partners of their own species.

 

[IBWO_Agnostic]

remember, there were no coyotes in the southeast prior to the 50s. The Red Wolf never had to contend with coyotes as potential mates. THere were always enough of it's own kind that it was never an issue.

Found this if you want to learn more.
http://www.fws.gov/alligatorriver/redwolf.html

 

[MMinNY]

Some of that captured group were excluded from the breeding program due to hybridization. Also virtually all Eastern Timber Wolves have some Coyote ancestry. This from my recent meeting.

remember, there were no coyotes in the southeast prior to the 50s. The Red Wolf never had to contend with coyotes as potential mates. THere were always enough of it's own kind that it was never an issue.

Found this if you want to learn more.
http://www.fws.gov/alligatorriver/redwolf.html

 

[70ivorybill78]

Thanks for that post,
I believe the same thing has happened (rarely) in Yellowstone. There have definitely been Gray wolves captured in the wild that (thru. DNA testing) have been found to be carrying coyote genes, thus proving even Gray wolves have hybridized at times. This would probably occur with young wolves dispersing into new wolf free zones. Adults in stable social packs seem to kill coyotes in most situations when thay can catch them. These killings have been documented in Yellowstone several times

 

[humminbird]

So, you'll take the Sagan quote out of context to defend your position and continue to misrepresent my words. As for "tearing off the kid gloves", I think you came after me first, at least on this subject. I'm not going to dignify the rest of your post with a rebuttal; since you can't be honest in your rejoinders, there's no point. I've made my views very clear in a couple of other posts today. I stand by everything I've written.

On edit: I said nothing about North America or vertebrates, but to name two recent North American (I'm counting Mexico as North America) rediscoveries, Cozumel Thrasher and Robust Redhorse, and I only did some cursory research; I'm sure there have been others. That's certainly common -- relative to proof of extraterrestrial intelligence. And in the case of the Cozumel Thrasher, we're dealing with a bird endemic to a well-developed island that is also a tourist center. World wide, rediscoveries have happened many times, and there's no need to cite chapter and verse. There's nothing extraordinary about such events, certainly not in the sense that Sagan intended[/QUOT

Hey Mike:
You forgot Ivory-billed Woodpecker which has been generally accepted as extirpated and "rediscovered" at least once prior to the Cornell rediscovery in 2004.

 

[naples]

The Florida Panther has always been KNOWN to exist.

O.K. 35 years ago......better. Confirmed in 72

Then by your logic IBWO has always been KNOWN to exist.
confirmed in 04.

That's what I'm talkin bout.

 

[humminbird]

FYI: Hunters have essentially no reports of IBWO even thought the area is extensively hunted in the fall.

Source please ma'am. Hunters have been reporting Ivory-billed Woodpeckers from all across the Southeast throughout the "60 years of (misrepresented)silence"

 

[MMinNY]

I did add that in the follow-up post.

Hey Mike:
You forgot Ivory-billed Woodpecker which has been generally accepted as extirpated and "rediscovered" at least once prior to the Cornell rediscovery in 2004.

 

[humminbird]

I did add that in the follow-up post.

Sorry, I missed that Mike.

 

[naples]

Does anyone know when Mary Scott is going to update her news flash.

 

[Curtis Croulet]

Regarding new North American vertebrate species, here is a convoluted one

Cottontail species in the Appalachian Mountains that was formerly believed to be New England cottontails (Sylvilagus transitionalis) is found through DNA testing and cranial studies to be a "new species", the Appalachian cottontail (Sylvilagus obscurus). This was apparently regarded as a true species and not just a race or subspecies by the state of Kentucky.

This sort of thing happens frequently, especially now that DNA research is available. The classification of North American reptiles and amphibians that I memorized 40+ years ago has been thrown into turmoil.

 

[chris murphy]

Does anyone know when Mary Scott is going to update her news flash.

Yeah, when the sedatives wear off and she rejoins planet Earth with the rest of us.

 

[Piltdownwoman]

While it is true that Pilty asked about vertebrates, there is a big difference between a North American bird (that hundreds of thousands of North American birders would recognize when they saw it) and a Sonoma Tree Vole that probably only a hundred North American mammalogists would recognize in the hand.

BTW, Red Wolves were never thought to be extinct. Members of the last packs in the Southeast were taken in and bred and the genetics was closely monitored due to an influx of coyote genes. These were then reintroduced to a couple islands in the southeast, and coastal North Carolina.

Also Eskimo Curlew can be a difficult ID in the field. It is probable that birds persisted and were overlooked by birders.

I don't think this proves anything. But what the hell, we're not about 'proving' anything on this forum are we?

Remember when the announcement first came out. They really played up the fact that this area was so remote. Then we find out the sightings were 100 yards from a highway bridge, the area is heavily hunted, there are miles of ATV trails (White River NWR), there has been Swainson's Warbler researchers there for years, they've had people doing Christmas Bird Counts for years.....in other words, not so isolated and remote (and yes, I have been to both refuges, so this IS personal experience). So, yes, I do think that while it is POSSIBLE for an IBWO population to persist in the truly remote areas of the southeast, I just don't find it that PROBABLE.

prob·a·ble
1. Likely to happen or to be true: War seemed probable in 1938. The home team, far ahead, is the probable winner.
2. Likely but uncertain; plausible.

pos·si·ble
1. Capable of happening, existing, or being true without contradicting proven facts, laws, or circumstances.
2. Capable of occurring or being done without offense to character, nature, or custom.

I first posted the question out of real interest, and want to thank peoole for taking the time to look these things up (the history of that Sucker is so odd - a bunch of the early spec. and notes went missing, it sounds like it was never common and may have escaped detection by being a deep water, river fish who hangs around submerged snags).

It is interesting to note that aside from the rediscovery of IBWO in the US in the 1920s there are no other US birds in this list. Sad, really - cause no matter if you believe the evidence that CLO has put together or not, the prospects for "presumed" or "probable" or "likely" (you can pick the modifier) extinct birds are really grim.