Ivory-billed Woodpecker (formerly updates) (6 Viewers)

[Mike Johnston]

This is not correct. The Florida Wildlife Commission, the state's agency for wildlife matters, lists the IBWO as endangered, same as the Feds.

Dalcio

Well, someone better inform the Florida Ornithological Society Records Committee. Their Official State List, as of Feb. 2006, records IBWO as extinct.

Here they are in all their glory. Bet they're sweating now! Will they do an Arkansas or not?

 

[Andigena]

Well, fortunately, the bulk of this habitat seems to be a state protected watershed and is relatively unlikely to be at risk in the foreseeable future.

I'm wondering if Bill Smith knew about this and was right all along.

I'm also really interested in what people have to say after reading everything, and listening to the audio.

I find it quite convincing, but that's probably no surprise. The quantity of evidence far surpasses what came out of Arkansas.

This is not one of the several areas that Bill Smith indicated---his purported sites were all in the peninsula of Florida--Peace River, Hillsborough River, and up to the Suwanee River.

I find the information from Hill, et.al. compelling. Predictions: 1) Hill will do the basic research in the next few years clearly documenting a small population of IBWO in the area; 2) Birders will start showing up there in the next few months (including me)---the area is large and apparently has very little birding pressure, and is not very well-known even among canoeists--although it is one of the best long-distance canoe trips in the SE; 3) Photos will eventually be taken, most likely of IBWO in flight. 4) After the photos, MANY more birders will show up--even from UK. 5) Cries to preserve the nesting areas/exclude hunters will come from some...........hopefully this will not piss off the turkey hunters, deer/pig hunters and squirrel hunters, who have been using this public area for decades.

I hope someone in nw Florida makes the effort to start reaching out to the hunting community now, and to encourage them that the presence of these birds will not endanger their hunting priviledges on state land in the area. Apparently the Florida Commission of Game and Fish has refused to close even Hill's 2 sq. km. study area. This is, in my opinion, a good thing.

Meanwhile, following Hill's suggestion, somebody who lives down there should start getting out on the Escambia and the Yellow and, of course, the Apalachicola, and finding out where else these birds are persisting. Looking in tornado/hurricane areas (note Hill says these birds are hanging out around a tornado-damaged forest tract) within these bottomlands is intriguing (a la Choupique). See you in the swamp.

 

[jurek]

I'm also really interested in what people have to say after reading everything, and listening to the audio.

I find it quite convincing, but that's probably no surprise. The quantity of evidence far surpasses what came out of Arkansas.

Worth pointing is that kent calls and double-knocks were usually or always heard and taped separately from calls of squirrels, jays and other things proposed as misidentifications. Actually, most of species don't even occur it this area.

This defies criticism that sounds are misidentification, or that sound recordings are of little use because it is common to mistake calls with other animals, breaking branches etc.

Actually, some possibilities of misidentification - nuthatches, heron, squirrel - are rather improbable. For me, critics are putting forward rather over-the-top scenarios.

 

[70ivorybill78]

I'm wondering if Bill Smith knew about this and was right all along
--------
I am wondering if this is one of the areas Bill has mentioned that was later closed off to the public?

Looks like I jumped the gun, this question was just answered

 

[kyanite]

Cries to preserve the nesting areas/exclude hunters will come from some...........hopefully this will not piss off the turkey hunters, deer/pig hunters and squirrel hunters, who have been using this public area for decades.

I hope someone in nw Florida makes the effort to start reaching out to the hunting community now, and to encourage them that the presence of these birds will not endanger their hunting priviledges on state land in the area. Apparently the Florida Commission of Game and Fish has refused to close even Hill's 2 sq. km. study area. This is, in my opinion, a good thing.

Once the anti-hunting zealots figure out that MEN with GUNS are in the various habitats there may be little that can be done to prevent some ugly conflicts. Pre-emptive outreach to sportsmen's associations is an excellent idea, but on the other side the anti-hunting crowd shows little tendency to accept adult supervision.

 

[gws]

This is not one of the several areas that Bill Smith indicated---his purported sites were all in the peninsula of Florida--Peace River, Hillsborough River, and up to the Suwanee River.

I find the information from Hill, et.al. compelling. Predictions: 1) Hill will do the basic research in the next few years clearly documenting a small population of IBWO in the area; 2) Birders will start showing up there in the next few months (including me)---the area is large and apparently has very little birding pressure, and is not very well-known even among canoeists--although it is one of the best long-distance canoe trips in the SE; 3) Photos will eventually be taken, most likely of IBWO in flight. 4) After the photos, MANY more birders will show up--even from UK. 5) Cries to preserve the nesting areas/exclude hunters will come from some...........hopefully this will not piss off the turkey hunters, deer/pig hunters and squirrel hunters, who have been using this public area for decades.

I hope someone in nw Florida makes the effort to start reaching out to the hunting community now, and to encourage them that the presence of these birds will not endanger their hunting priviledges on state land in the area. Apparently the Florida Commission of Game and Fish has refused to close even Hill's 2 sq. km. study area. This is, in my opinion, a good thing.

Meanwhile, following Hill's suggestion, somebody who lives down there should start getting out on the Escambia and the Yellow and, of course, the Apalachicola, and finding out where else these birds are persisting. Looking in tornado/hurricane areas (note Hill says these birds are hanging out around a tornado-damaged forest tract) within these bottomlands is intriguing (a la Choupique). See you in the swamp.

Good post, and your comment about reaching out to the hunting community is absolutely the right idea. That group could actually be an ally in this matter.

I just hope there is not a flood of people to this area. You would hope and expect that true lovers of nature would have the interests of the ivorybill uppermost in mind.

 

[dendroica_john]

Once the anti-hunting zealots figure out that MEN with GUNS are in the various habitats there may be little that can be done to prevent some ugly conflicts. Pre-emptive outreach to sportsmen's associations is an excellent idea, but on the other side the anti-hunting crowd shows little tendency to accept adult supervision.

Hunting zealots have far more political clout than anti-hunting zealots, especially in a red state like Florida. Even in blue states, the best that anti-hunting zealots can do in most cases is make noise.

 

[Jane Turner]

Well I have to say that the field notes posted are much the most convincing evidence I have seen. Well done chaps.... even a dodgy video combined with these might be enough to get the record accepted. Perhaps a photo is redundant. Its great to read original believeable, contemporary descriptions of what may prove to be diagnostic structural differences.

 

[theveeb]

"Each of us could have shot an Ivory-billed by now because we had time to raise a shotgun. But video cameras are really hard to point compared to binoculars and shotguns."

I'm sorry but I find this comment a bit lame and insensitive. Come on people, how about using a dSLR camera with a 300mm or 400mm lens? That's what I used when I was in the Cache. A dSLR has the advantage of having line-of-sight optics which means that if you fix your gaze on the bird in flight, bring the camera up in line with where you are looking, the bird should be in the frame, just like binoculars. It becomes a reflexive motor action with practice. Not only that, you can have 8-12Mpixels of image instead of a 720x480 interlaced image (i.e. 720x240pixels => .17Mpixel). A good dSLR will give you 3-8 frames/second. That would radically improve the odds of successfully documenting these birds.

As I've said before, get people in there that have experience & talent capturing images of birds in flight! It is an acquired skill and requires good equipment. Good luck!

the veeb

P.S. And don't shoot yourself in the foot like Cornell by not giving the lucky photographer any rights to the images they shoot, since that will discourage almost all self-respecting bird photographers with talent.

 

[gws]

Nice to see some positions being nudged in the right direction.

 

[dacol]

My comment that the state governement in Florida considers IBWO endangered (and not extinct) got the following reply by Mr. Johnston:

Well, someone better inform the Florida Ornithological Society Records Committee. Their Official State List, as of Feb. 2006, records IBWO as extinct.

Here they are in all their glory. Bet they're sweating now! Will they do an Arkansas or not?

May I point out that as far as ESA protections are concerned Federal and state agencies hold the last word?

The FOS Records Committee is a private, self-selected committee of ornithologists and birders, nothing more and nothing less. The "Official" in their state list is nothing of the sort, that is, it does not signify an endorsement by the state of Florida wildlife authorities. In my opinion the adjective "Official" in the FOS list is a bit of pompous self-aggrandizement, unfortunately quite common in birding circles in the USA.

Dalcio

 

[Andrew Rowlands]

P.S. And don't shoot yourself in the foot like Cornell by not giving the lucky photographer any rights to the images they shoot, since that will discourage almost all self-respecting bird photographers with talent.

I found that part of the contract quite strange, I was under the impression that copyright of a photograph belonged to the person who bought/supplied the filmstock; that would be the equivalent of flash memory cards now.

If so, and Cornell expects the searchers to provide the films/memory cards, as well as other photographic hardware, how would it stand in a court of law if the photographer were to sell his pictures on the open market?

 

[Mike Johnston]

Nice to see some positions being nudged in the right direction.

I don't think it's a question of positions being 'nudged'. Most 'sceptics' here have often said that they would be delighted if IBWO was proved extant - they just weren't willing to swallow every piece of poor evidence presented without question (and you must admit, some of it was pretty poor!) 'Provide some decent evidence' was the general tenor. Well, now there is some, not definitive, but very suggestive evidence to examine. I admire the guys for putting their academic b*lls on the line. Now, at least, people have got something to work with. But the way things are, they've got to get some images.

 

[naples]

I'm wondering if Bill Smith knew about this and was right all along
--------
I am wondering if this is one of the areas Bill has mentioned that was later closed off to the public?

Looks like I jumped the gun, this question was just answered

I think he was following Charley, Jeanne, and Frances... X marks the spot?
http://www.wunderground.com/hurricane/at2004.asp

One thing he will be right about is that IBWO exists in multi. locals in FL.
I would also search burns 1 to 2 years.

 

[MMinNY]

I haven't read Cornell's contract, so I can't say with certainty. As a general rule, however, the contract would control. Cornell would hold the copyright, and the photographer would not have the legal right to sell any such photos.

I found that part of the contract quite strange, I was under the impression that copyright of a photograph belonged to the person who bought/supplied the filmstock; that would be the equivalent of flash memory cards now.

If so, and Cornell expects the searchers to provide the films/memory cards, as well as other photographic hardware, how would it stand in a court of law if the photographer were to sell his pictures on the open market?

 

[oriole83]

Two sightings, same day, different states

In reading Brian Rolek's field notes, I realized that he and Cinclodes claim to have observed IBWOs in Mississippi and Florida on the same day. Here are their notes...

Brian Rolek's field notes from the Choctawhatchee River, Florida on 2 February 2006:
..."I could see that the bird was definitely larger than a pileated. The amount of white on the wings seemed obvious that it was not a pileated. While it was flying, I could also see that white was showing on the back of the wings."


Here is Cinclodes record from the same day in the Pearl Basin, Mississippi (see Fishcrow.com):

2-2-06. I was drifting along in my kayak and spotted a bird that flushed from near the right bank and flew directly away from the water. I got my binos on the bird, but they were a little out of focus. I saw details, but they weren't sharp. I clearly saw the white trailing edge of the wings. Since the view was nearly from the side, it was clear that the white was on the trailing edge. I also saw an all-dark head and noticed a small patch of white on the neck.

If they are correct, this is probably the first time this has occurred since the 1920's or possibly earlier.

 

[James Lowther]

anyone notice the crossed out shopping list (skim milk, dr pepper) next to Tyler Hicks' original field sketch??

nice work fella!

 

[Strandman]

I haven't read Cornell's contract, so I can't say with certainty. As a general rule, however, the contract would control. Cornell would hold the copyright, and the photographer would not have the legal right to sell any such photos.

There are a number of attorneys on this thread, although one seems to have gone quiet lately..hmm..

The answer is that that whoever takes the photo has the copyright UNLESS (one of the lawyer's favourite words) the photographer has agreed to let someone else have it.

It is perfectly normal to get someone doing a paid job for you to let you have the copyright, or agree to restrictions on use. It is less normal to get for example expedition members to agree to it, but I have seen it done as a means of ensuring an orderly house where the expedition is looking for something exciting..

 

[gws]

I don't think it's a question of positions being 'nudged'. Most 'sceptics' here have often said that they would be delighted if IBWO was proved extant - they just weren't willing to swallow every piece of poor evidence presented without question (and you must admit, some of it was pretty poor!) 'Provide some decent evidence' was the general tenor. Well, now there is some, not definitive, but very suggestive evidence to examine. I admire the guys for putting their academic b*lls on the line. Now, at least, people have got something to work with. But the way things are, they've got to get some images.

I just knew that someone would quibble on the word "nudged." Absolutely knew it.

My post was meant in the best of spirit, whether you believe it or not.

 

[naples]

Sounds familiar. see post #2096

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=33968&page=84&pp=25

http://www.annistonstar.com/opinion/2006/as-columns-0925-jflemingcol-6i25u1829.htm

Quote by Hicks

“Within just an hour or so after we went into that area,” he said by phone from Colorado, “we heard this rapping that was really loud. I can only describe it as like someone beating a baseball bat against a tree. Soon after, Brian saw a large bird that had some interesting markings, and a little later Dr. Hill heard a double knock.”