Latest IOC Diary Updates (4 Viewers)

[Mike Earp]

No, alphabetical order is more simple. The systematic position of species can change depending on the studies so if I have to readjust their position with each published study, pffff

But you happily move species into different genera in light of such studies. pffff

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

But you happily move species into different genera in light of such studies. pffff

Yes but it's less restrictive.

By restrictive, I would say constraining

 

[THE_FERN]

Yes but it's less restrictive.

And less completely disruptive.

If you're really keen to know relationships below the recognised taxonomic divisions (and believe these are known), then for goodness sake use a phylogeny.

If you want it 1d, use newick format and leave the rest of us alone!

 

[Andy Adcock]

But you don't want them to have different names......you want Red Knot to be called Knot.......so presumably you'd like great Knot to be called....Knot.

They already have different names.

 

[jhopkins]

They already have different names.

No....you said you don't like Red Knot....so what do you want to call it?

 

[Andy Adcock]

No....you said you don't like Red Knot....so what do you want to call it?

Knot is fine, Knot and Great Knot seem perfectly sufficient to me.

Such an expert as yourself should surely have all the scientific binomials committed to memory, that's what they are for.

If I'm in a place where both species occur, I might call out Great Knot should I find one, if it's the other species, then if I said merely Knot, then that's what I would mean, very simple really.

One could probably argue that in calling a bird 'Great' whatever, this alone serves to draw distinction between it and something smaller?

 

[opisska]

Great Knot and Not-so-Great Knot, clearly

 

[Andy Adcock]

No....you said you don't like Red Knot....so what do you want to call it?

You're just being argumentative, there is no need to call it anything other than it currently is in the UK.

 

[pbjosh]

You're just being argumentative, there is no need to call it anything other than it currently is in the UK.

Maybe I'm missing something. No one is forcing birders to say "Red" before saying "Knot" in the UK. I don't see a big hurdle to clear to read a web page or a field guide and see "Red Knot" and know that it is what you call "Knot" and if there is any doubt the range map clears it up and perhaps a few learn that there are other Knots out there. And I think it's a bit silly to ask the rest of the world to change the bird called "Red Knot" to "Knot" so I guess I just don't understand what the issue is. I've never heard anyone in South America get wound up that their field guide calls the bird they call "Condor" Andean Condor or Condor Andino.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Maybe I'm missing something. No one is forcing birders to say "Red" before saying "Knot" in the UK. I don't see a big hurdle to clear to read a web page or a field guide and see "Red Knot" and know that it is what you call "Knot" and if there is any doubt the range map clears it up and perhaps a few learn that there are other Knots out there. And I think it's a bit silly to ask the rest of the world to change the bird called "Red Knot" to "Knot" so I guess I just don't understand what the issue is. I've never heard anyone in South America get wound up that their field guide calls the bird they call "Condor" Andean Condor or Condor Andino.

I think you have this the wrong way around, I'm arguing for status quo in terms of the British list where it's simply called a 'Knot'. The original talking point was sparked by our Australian friend, stating that he and other Australians, do not like to be told what to call 'their' birds' so I said, 'neither do I' and gave Red Knot and Black-bellied Plover as examples.

 

[pbjosh]

I think you have this the wrong way around, I'm arguing for status quo in terms of the British list where it's simply called a 'Knot'. The original talking point was sparked by our Australian friend, stating that he and other Australians, do not like to be told what to call 'their' birds' so I said, 'neither do I' and gave Red Knot and Black-bellied Plover as examples.

Maybe I miss some of the intricacies of what's going on there... Northern Goshawk is changing to American vs Eurasian for birders everywhere but I seriously doubt anyone will bat an eye or do anything other than just keep calling it Goshawk. I do agree with the desires to maintain local names where there are actual differences - ie, keep the differences between Diver/Loon, Tit/Chickadee, Grey vs Black-bellied Plover, Grey vs Red Phalarope, Jaeger vs Skua, etc. Though I wouldn't lose sleep if they all suddenly changed. I've done enough birding in the US vs Europe that I'm quite versed using the wrong name for both audiences regularly. However on the example of "Knot" changing to "Red Knot" on official lists... that's something I wouldn't even notice and if I did I wouldn't blink at it. Of course that's my subjective opinion on the last bit, and I think it's the bit that I least understand being upset over. Surely there are bigger grievances in the world?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Maybe I miss some of the intricacies of what's going on there... Northern Goshawk is changing to American vs Eurasian for birders everywhere but I seriously doubt anyone will bat an eye or do anything other than just keep calling it Goshawk. I do agree with the desires to maintain local names where there are actual differences - ie, keep the differences between Diver/Loon, Tit/Chickadee, Grey vs Black-bellied Plover, Grey vs Red Phalarope, Jaeger vs Skua, etc. Though I wouldn't lose sleep if they all suddenly changed. I've done enough birding in the US vs Europe that I'm quite versed using the wrong name for both audiences regularly. However on the example of "Knot" changing to "Red Knot" on official lists... that's something I wouldn't even notice and if I did I wouldn't blink at it. Of course that's my subjective opinion on the last bit, and I think it's the bit that I least understand being upset over. Surely there are bigger grievances in the world?

Hadn't heard the Goshawk thing but it may imply the potential, future split or why not just stick with the neutral 'Northern'?

 

[pbjosh]

Hadn't heard the Goshawk thing but it may imply the potential, future split or why not just stick with the neutral 'Northern'?

Split in IOC 13.2 and in eBird/Clements as of this year, thus the name changes that are showing up in everyone's listing software / websites and will be in future field guides but that won't change the fact that everyone just calls their local bird a "Goshawk" and omits American or Eurasian just as they used to omit Northern.

 

[jhopkins]

Hadn't heard the Goshawk thing but it may imply the potential, future split or why not just stick with the neutral 'Northern'?

Goshawk is already split.....but I guess its only an 'expert' like me that would know that....thanks for the promotion by the way...😉

 

[Andy Adcock]

Goshawk is already split.....but I guess its only an 'expert' like me that would know that....thanks for the promotion by the way...😉

Goshawk is still just Goshawk on my list (IOC) though American is listed separately.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Split in IOC 13.2 and in eBird/Clements as of this year, thus the name changes that are showing up in everyone's listing software / websites and will be in future field guides but that won't change the fact that everyone just calls their local bird a "Goshawk" and omits American or Eurasian just as they used to omit Northern.

It still is just Goshawk on my Scythebill list, that will be why I'm unaware of the split.

 

[pbjosh]

It still is just Goshawk on my Scythebill list, that will be why I'm unaware of the split.

(This is said tongue in cheek, don't take too much offense) - There's another benefit of staying with simply "Goshawk" and "Knot" - you can be taken by surprise when you're the last to find out about taxonomy changes!

Does Sycthebill have an option for explicitly British names / short form names for birds then?

 

[Andy Adcock]

(This is said tongue in cheek, don't take too much offense) - There's another benefit of staying with simply "Goshawk" and "Knot" - you can be taken by surprise when you're the last to find out about taxonomy changes!

Does Sycthebill have an option for explicitly British names / short form names for birds then?

I don't think so but the name change to Eurasian is noted within the acount.

 

[awiner]

Scythebill does let you use choose BOU names for both Clements and IOC.

 

[jhopkins]

Goshawk is still just Goshawk on my list (IOC) though American is listed separately.

I'm using IOC too....and mine shows Eurasian Goshawk and American Goshawk......I don't see any entry labelled simply ' Goshawk'. Have you checked the last update?