Latest IOC Diary Updates (3 Viewers)

[Owene]

Actually you've justified both eponyms and place-names here for me too: they do tell you something about the history of natural history, one of the things being the sources of and investment in enquiring science and another, which individuals made contributions to science. Why should Chemistry and Physics have Hooke's Law, Avogadro's number etc but biology be devoid of recognising individual work?

I find it interesting and an assistance to memory to know that Pallas's Warbler, Pallas's Grasshopper Warbler (I wonder what Peter Pallas would think of "Gropper"?) Pallas's Fish Eagle are associated - not necessarily with finding always, but that's part of the interest in reading up - with one expeditionary naturalist. Ditto Steller with Sea Eagle, Jay and the sadly extinct Sea Cow (oh look, a cautionary tale for the reader.) It's interesting that Lulworth Skipper was described in Dorset prior to the rest of its range. Worth reading generally into the development of interest in scientific investigation and classification?

John

I do find the lulworth skipper thing interesting, I just kind of wonder what someone seeing a Camberwell beauty or Kentish plover in Europe thinks when they learn their English names.

I guess the reality is that they have established names in other languages too presumably with their own idiosyncrasies even if there are also places like here where people from round the globe discuss them in English.

 

[cajanuma]

I guess the reality is that they have established names in other languages too presumably with their own idiosyncrasies even if there are also places like here where people from round the globe discuss them in English.

The Italian name for Barred Warbler is Bigia padovana ("little gray bird of Padua"), presumably reflecting the fact that the Veneto region where Padua is located was once at the core of its Italian breeding range (it's barely hanging on as a breeding bird in Italy now, and is gone from the Padua area). The Black-winged Stilt is called Cavaliere d'Italia ("Italian knight"). I have no idea where that comes from, but obviously Italy is just a small part of its global breeding range. Italian names are also wildly inaccurate and misleading in terms of reflecting taxonomy: the Rufous-tailed Rock-Thrush is known as Codirossone ("Greater Redstart"), while the closely-related Blue Rock-Thrush is mystifyingly named Passero solitario ("Solitary Sparrow") - yet no one gets confused, Italian birders know exactly what we mean when we say Codirossone, Passero solitario, or Usignolo di fiume (the "River Nightingale", known in English as Cetti's Warbler). Nonsensical as many of these names are, the purpose of achieving clarity of language is much better served by leaving them alone rather than by making them 'more accurate'.

This isn't to say that I believe bird names should never be changed, or that I think all eponyms should stand (by all means, get rid of Jameson's Firefinch/Antpecker), but if the purpose of common bird names is to facilitate communication and understanding, then generally speaking stability is a pretty good thing

 

[opisska]

I think saying that the choice is between eponyms and "brown-streaked black-faced brown-ass" names is a false dichotomy abused by the eponym fans to discourage their removal. I am personally against eponyms, I like birds not people. I believe an interesting name is possible for all kinds of birds. For example a few days ago I saw a nondescript brown thing that looks quite a bit like 30 other furnariid species, but it's called "Firewood-gatherer" which immediately sparks my interest in learning where does that come from. If it's named after a person, that says nothing about the bird at all and I am not interested. Sure, I think being interested in history of nature research is a great hobby and I encourage everyone to look up discoverers of species, but I really do not see why this hobby should take precedence in the naming space instead of the birds themselves.

 

[Mysticete]

In Chile, though, those islands are officially known as Isla Robinson Crusoe and Isla Alejandro Selkirk, respectively. If the name change is driven merely by a desire for more clarity/simplification, I have no problem with that, Masatierra and Masafuera are the old/colloquial names for the islands, De Filippi was an obscure Italian naturalist (though I did enjoy learning a bit about him just now), and it's not like De Filippi's Petrel was a strongly entrenched name anyway.

If the change was instead driven by a need to remove eponyms, then I think it clearly illustrates one of the (many) issues with a movement that purports to be 'anti-colonialist', and yet seems to be strongly American-driven.

But Isla Alejandro Selkirk Petrel and Isla Robinson Crusoe Petrel (Or Alejandro Selkirk Island Petrel/Robinson Crusoe Island Petrel don't exactly roll off the tongue.

 

[Mysticete]

I think saying that the choice is between eponyms and "brown-streaked black-faced brown-ass" names is a false dichotomy abused by the eponym fans to discourage their removal. I am personally against eponyms, I like birds not people. I believe an interesting name is possible for all kinds of birds. For example a few days ago I saw a nondescript brown thing that looks quite a bit like 30 other furnariid species, but it's called "Firewood-gatherer" which immediately sparks my interest in learning where does that come from. If it's named after a person, that says nothing about the bird at all and I am not interested. Sure, I think being interested in history of nature research is a great hobby and I encourage everyone to look up discoverers of species, but I really do not see why this hobby should take precedence in the naming space instead of the birds themselves.

I would agree. If you want to rename species, a key to get those changes accepted is to come up with a cool name. Often times however the folks in charge of that aren't exactly the most creative people in that category. (cough Thick-billed Longspur cough)

 

[Owene]

But Isla Alejandro Selkirk Petrel and Isla Robinson Crusoe Petrel (Or Alejandro Selkirk Island Petrel/Robinson Crusoe Island Petrel don't exactly roll off the tongue.

Robinson Crusoe petrel is pretty cool though

 

[Andy Adcock]

I do find the lulworth skipper thing interesting, I just kind of wonder what someone seeing a Camberwell beauty or Kentish plover in Europe thinks when they learn their English names.

I guess the reality is that they have established names in other languages too presumably with their own idiosyncrasies even if there are also places like here where people from round the globe discuss them in English.

The whole point is that they are English names, other nations have the freedom to call them whatever they want in their own language.,. The examples you give are those with names of places in the UK but a common bird here in Cyprus is Sardinian Warbler, is it different because it's named after a European place, by Brits?

 

[andrew147]

I'm finding myself agreeing with many points made by both sides of this interesting discussion, probably because the eponym debate is not really an 'all or nothing' situation.

Honorifics for Pallas, Steller - even dodgy old Audubon - make sense because of their seminal contributions to ornithology, whatever else they may have done. Whereas, simultaneously, renaming birds that currently honour actual murderers (Jameson) seems like a no-brainer - I mean, he's still gonna be there in the species epithet, it's not like he'd be wiped from ornithological history.

For my part, I'd also happily get rid of honorifics for people who did not contribute to ornithology at all (Mrs Hume, Scott)... and if we're talking boring - how can an astonishing bird like Syrmaticus reevesii go by something so dull? In other languages, its names translate as 'revered', 'venerated' or 'king' pheasant. Yet, I don't always welcome novelty: I was slightly irritated by the whimsical choice of Inti for Heliothraupis instead of just calling it Sun Tanager. Where options exist, individual bird names will always be subject to personal preference and associations.

Eponyms aside, most people with an above-average interest in birds will already have a working understanding that birds can be known by multiple English names: Goosander/Common Merganser, Grey/Black-bellied Plover, Little Auk/Dovekie, loon/diver, boobook/hawk owl... and there can't be many ornithologists who would not (at least begrudgingly) welcome new unique root names for members of Modulatricidae or the West Indian non-warbler-non-tanagers - on par with cupwing.

People interested in fungi may recall the Recommended English Names for Fungi Project which created hundreds of novel English common names for fungi that had previously mostly only been known by scientific names. There was plenty of resistance to this at the time, in fungi circles, but I think most mycologists came round to the overall usefulness of this project.

Maybe something like this could happen for birds. A list could be generated by a committee giving a recommended unique name for all species that have contentious/potentially contentious/inaccurate/uninformative/"boring" English names. People could then chose to embrace and include these names or not - probably some would end up as the default common name and many would be forgotten.

 

[njlarsen]

I think saying that the choice is between eponyms and "brown-streaked black-faced brown-ass" names is a false dichotomy abused by the eponym fans to discourage their removal. I am personally against eponyms, I like birds not people. I believe an interesting name is possible for all kinds of birds. For example a few days ago I saw a nondescript brown thing that looks quite a bit like 30 other furnariid species, but it's called "Firewood-gatherer" which immediately sparks my interest in learning where does that come from. If it's named after a person, that says nothing about the bird at all and I am not interested. Sure, I think being interested in history of nature research is a great hobby and I encourage everyone to look up discoverers of species, but I really do not see why this hobby should take precedence in the naming space instead of the birds themselves.

How easy do you find it to keep separate in your mind the 25+ species of Tyrannulets containing some variant of grey together with some variant of bodypart?
Niels

 

[opisska]

How easy do you find it to keep separate in your mind the 25+ species of Tyrannulets containing some variant of grey together with some variant of bodypart?
Niels

But that's what I am saying, that this is not the only way - I am also not really fond of this kind of naming. But the species have to differ by something, otherwise why would they speciate? I have to say that I am rather inclined to geographical or habitat-based names. I think the only Tyrannulet (apart from probably Southern Beardless) I got in Peru was Peruvian, that is a good name IMO

 

[Markus Lagerqvist]

One possibly problematic aspect with the name Masatierra Petrel is that is actually doesn't occur on Isla Robinson Crusoe (Más A Tierra)...

From Birds of the World: "Santa Clara, in Juan Fernández archipelago holds few hundred pairs, while stacks of Morro Juanango and El Verdugo, off Robinson Crusoe, might also be breeding sites, and at least 10,000 birds attend colonies on San Ambrosio, in Desventuradas, with 150–200 birds on San Félix in same archipelago".

So most of its populations is on the Desventuradas, with some on small islands off Robinson Crusoe. Not sure if it has bred on Isla Robinson Crusoe historically?

 

[njlarsen]

But that's what I am saying, that this is not the only way - I am also not really fond of this kind of naming. But the species have to differ by something, otherwise why would they speciate? I have to say that I am rather inclined to geographical or habitat-based names. I think the only Tyrannulet (apart from probably Southern Beardless) I got in Peru was Peruvian, that is a good name IMO

Especially when you get it on your next visit to Ecuador?
Niels

 

[jurek]

I notice that while birders think they are obliged to make bird names politically correct, no such movement exists elsewhere in science. Physical units, chemical units, geographical names, mammal and plant names remain.

Try changing Farhneit scale or American continent to something more appropriate.

 

[jts1882]

Well, it would look silly if they started changing the names of constants.

 

[Xenospiza]

I notice that while birders think they are obliged to make bird names politically correct, no such movement exists elsewhere in science. Physical units, chemical units, geographical names, mammal and plant names remain.

Not all true.

https://cen.acs.org/synthesis/reaction-mechanisms/Podcast-Chemists-debate-value-name-reactions-in-organic-chemistry/98/web/2020/08

As a chemist, my main gripe is that name reactions are often used for old-fashioned rota learning, which infers no understanding of what's happening.
Immediate disclaimer: the title of my PhD thesis contains a name reaction.

 

[jurek]

Anybody is keeping an ear to the student activists at American universities? Because it may be that 'the temporary truth' of denouncing historical figures has changed, activists changed interests, and birders are making a debate which nobody is interested in anymore.

*The readers from outside the former communist countries may not know the ironic phrase 'there is absolute truth and a temporary truth'. The temporary truth means ideological claims which are suddenly very publicized and then quickly abandoned. It originated from a 1980 comedy film from Poland, and has an additional undertone that following short-time ideological movements is a risky thing.

 

[Kirk Roth]

Anybody is keeping an ear to the student activists at American universities? Because it may be that 'the temporary truth' of denouncing historical figures has changed, activists changed interests, and birders are making a debate which nobody is interested in anymore.

Clearly SOMEBODY is interested... or it wouldn't spawn page after page of speculation in these update threads!!!

 

[Andy Adcock]

Clearly SOMEBODY is interested... or it wouldn't spawn page after page of speculation in these update threads!!!

Maybe, because people are sick of 'Woke' Americans, dictating World nomenclature?

 

[MJB]

Meanwhile, back on the subject of Latest IOC Diary Updates:

Dec 7 Revise the linear sequence of the family Aegithalidae.
MJB

 

[MJB]

Dec 11 Post proposed splits of “Savanna” Nightjar Caprimulgus monticolus and “Kayumanggi” Nightjar from “Allied” Nightjar C. affinis.. English names under discussion, and some differ from those suggested in the publication (Sangster et al. 2021).

Dec 11 Change English name of Raja Shelduck to Radjah Shelduck.
MJB