Latest IOC Diary Updates (2 Viewers)

[njlarsen]

I have never achieved a working relationship with the way sounds are described in dictionaries. My feeling for how I have heard Cacique pronounced by Guides in Latin America (Panama and Colombia most lately) is that the middle syllable is the most strongly pronounced, and the the ending is with a soft e, not ay sound. Therefore, something like kaSIIke (where the middle is capitalized ii not small LL )
Niels

 

[opisska]

I usually read ,"cacik" as if it was written like that in Czech. It's fun to say and slightly dirty. I butcher a lot of bird names like that, because I only ever communicate about them on writing so it doesn't matter

 

[pbjosh]

Si-sti-co-la

I see and raise you a “sih-stick-uh-luh”

 

[pbjosh]

I have never achieved a working relationship with the way sounds are described in dictionaries. My feeling for how I have heard Cacique pronounced by Guides in Latin America (Panama and Colombia most lately) is that the middle syllable is the most strongly pronounced, and the the ending is with a soft e, not ay sound. Therefore, something like kaSIIke (where the middle is capitalized ii not small LL )
Niels

Certainly in Spanish it would be an accented syllable in the middle as you say. Whether the last syllable sounds more “kay” or “keh” or “kee” probably is regionally / accent dependent.

But ultimately a pissing match about how to pronounce it in Spanish is pretty useless as it is certainly a word that has an origin in an indigenous language and the Spanish pronunciation that we “know” will only be an approximation of what the world really was/should be.

This is similar, again, to jaçana, jabiru, and many other words borrowed from indigenous languages. Even in Brazilian Portuguese and AR/PY/UY Spanish there are a ton of words that come from the Guaraní culture/language that get orthographically adapted to Spanish or Portuguese and have “official” pronunciations in both languages but are clearly just an idea of the original word. IE, “Yarará (ES) / Jarará / Jararaca (PT)” as names for Bothrops species, “Yaguareté (ES)” for Jaguar, “Yacaré (ES)” for Caiman, “Aguará Guazú (ES) / Lobo-guará (PT)” for Maned Wolf. There are definitely more and my “off the top of the head” knowledge for PT names is behind that for ES names so sorry for unequal representation there

 

[pbjosh]

I usually read ,"cacik" as if it was written like that in Czech. It's fun to say and slightly dirty. I butcher a lot of bird names like that, because I only ever communicate about them on writing so it doesn't matter

Yet we all manage to understand each other with these words so it doesn’t matter.

I’m more pedantic about native speakers misusing things that lead to genuine misunderstandings in meaningful conversations than to useless arguments about kay-LAY-uh vs KEE-lee-uh or worse TRO-gon vs tro-GUN.

 

[James Jobling]

I am in the pedantic camp, but I have given up being irritated by BirdForum correspondents, who should know better, regularly using “there” instead of “their” and vice versa.

 

[Andy Adcock]

I see and raise you a “sih-stick-uh-luh”

Where are you getting the 'uh' and 'luh'when the spelling is 'ola'?

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

-LAY-uh vs KEE-lee-uh

What kind of bird is it ?

 

[Andy Adcock]

I am in the pedantic camp, but I have given up being irritated by BirdForum correspondents, who should know better, regularly using “there” instead of “their” and vice versa.

My bug bear right now is the incorrect use of bring and take i.e 'Ill bring you on holiday'.....no you won't, if its in the future or to a geographically distant point you will 'take me on holiday'....grrrrrrrr

 

[Andy Adcock]

Yet we all manage to understand each other with these words so it doesn’t matter.

I’m more pedantic about native speakers misusing things that lead to genuine misunderstandings in meaningful conversations than to useless arguments about kay-LAY-uh vs KEE-lee-uh or worse TRO-gon vs tro-GUN.

Yet you are coming up with Cistculuh?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Certainly in Spanish it would be an accented syllable in the middle as you say. Whether the last syllable sounds more “kay” or “keh” or “kee” probably is regionally / accent dependent.

But ultimately a pissing match about how to pronounce it in Spanish is pretty useless as it is certainly a word that has an origin in an indigenous language and the Spanish pronunciation that we “know” will only be an approximation of what the world really was/should be.

This is similar, again, to jaçana, jabiru, and many other words borrowed from indigenous languages. Even in Brazilian Portuguese and AR/PY/UY Spanish there are a ton of words that come from the Guaraní culture/language that get orthographically adapted to Spanish or Portuguese and have “official” pronunciations in both languages but are clearly just an idea of the original word. IE, “Yarará (ES) / Jarará / Jararaca (PT)” as names for Bothrops species, “Yaguareté (ES)” for Jaguar, “Yacaré (ES)” for Caiman, “Aguará Guazú (ES) / Lobo-guará (PT)” for Maned Wolf. There are definitely more and my “off the top of the head” knowledge for PT names is behind that for ES names so sorry for unequal representation there

The thing is that these are words which are intended for use by English speakers no? If that is the case, we should forget the original pronunciation and go with a traditional English form as represented by the letters in each word, without over thinking and, when it comes to transcribing a name in to English, do it phonetically, as accurately as possible to represent the original sounds?

Cacique is a tricky one to guess the original form, the 'C's are problematic as they could be prounounced a few different ways as well as being pronounced differently from each other.

To avoid confusion (and this is just an example as to how it could, be said) a K might be used to represent both letters or a K at the front with the second being an S or vice versa and the final letter E, if it's not intended to be pronounced, in English it should probably not really be there at all?


There, sorted 😉

 

[Xenospiza]

What kind of bird is it ?

Quelea I assume.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Quelea I assume.

I thought Calao lol

 

[opisska]

The thing is that these are words which are intended for use by English speakers no? If that is the case, we should forget the original pronunciation and go with a traditional English form as represented by the letters in each word, without over thinking and, when it comes to transcribing a name in to English, do it phonetically, as accurately as possible to represent the original sounds?

Cacique is a tricky one to guess the original form, the 'C's are problematic as they could be prounounced a few different ways as well as being pronounced differently from each other.

To avoid confusion (and this is just an example as to how it could, be said) a K might be used to represent both letters or a K at the front with the second being an S or vice versa and the final letter E, if it's not intended to be pronounced, in English it should probably not really be there at all?


There, sorted 😉

Do you speak here about the same English that I know, in which the same cluster of letters can be read in half a dozen different ways even in words that are completely common? I am a bit confused There is no "phonetic" spelling in a language where there are no rules of pronunciation ... When I am learning a new English word, I have to learn how it's written and how it's pronounced. So, when an English birder is learning the name of a new bird, why can't they learn the same? You had to learn this about all other English words (only you don't remember doing it, as you were a kid). I mean there is the other level of trouble, as described by others in the thread, that many names don't have an unambiguous language origin anyway, but adding a layer of English-language ambiguity seems to be just all trouble no benefit?

 

[Xenospiza]

The thing is that these are words which are intended for use by English speakers no? If that is the case, we should forget the original pronunciation and go with a traditional English form as represented by the letters in each word, without over thinking and, when it comes to transcribing a name in to English, do it phonetically, as accurately as possible to represent the original sounds?

Cacique is a tricky one to guess the original form, the 'C's are problematic as they could be prounounced a few different ways as well as being pronounced differently from each other.

"Cacique" comes from Taino "kasike". I am not sure that would make the pronunciation much clearer in English (K-ay-s-eye-k?)
English speakers cannot deal with an unstressed -e at the end of a word. So you can seek inspiration in French (kaseek) or Portuguese (kasiki), which both match English phonology better.

 

[Andy Adcock]

"Cacique" comes from Taino "kasike". I am not sure that would make the pronunciation much clearer in English (K-ay-s-eye-k?)
English speakers cannot deal with an unstressed -e at the end of a word. So you can seek inspiration in French (kaseek) or Portuguese (kasiki), which both match English phonology better.

That would work perfectly well, again though, presuming the pronunciation of the 'C's

 

[Andy Adcock]

Do you speak here about the same English that I know, in which the same cluster of letters can be read in half a dozen different ways even in words that are completely common? I am a bit confused There is no "phonetic" spelling in a language where there are no rules of pronunciation ... When I am learning a new English word, I have to learn how it's written and how it's pronounced. So, when an English birder is learning the name of a new bird, why can't they learn the same? You had to learn this about all other English words (only you don't remember doing it, as you were a kid). I mean there is the other level of trouble, as described by others in the thread, that many names don't have an unambiguous language origin anyway, but adding a layer of English-language ambiguity seems to be just all trouble no benefit?

Of course there are, phonic, you'll know comes from hearing, what things sound like and quirks aside, there is obviously a phonetic representation of written English.

 

[opisska]

So if you write "ough" in a word, how is that pronounced exactly? Maybe you are blind to it because it feels so normal to you as native speaker, but English is the most ambiguous widely known language when it comes to pronunciation.

 

[pbjosh]

Where are you getting the 'uh' and 'luh'when the spelling is 'ola'?

Just having fun trying to spell out a couple of the pronunciations I’ve heard

 

[pbjosh]

Quelea I assume.

ding ding ding

Again I am just playing around with names that people commonly either mispronounce or argue/discuss how to pronounce. I don’t get too bothered about it. I don’t expect non Portuguese speakers to pronounce Trindade correctly nor do I expect a North American or European on their first visit to S America or Africa to have much of an idea of how Cacique or Quelea generally get pronounced. I foul up bird names upon first encounter frequently enough myself.