james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
True. And, do we really need to discuss the whole ''alpha's ain't worth it - to me'' for the hundred time?
They are to some, not to others, that's it.
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New to Swarovski - 10x42 EL Swarovisions (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gc220
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True. And, do we really need to discuss the whole ''alpha's ain't worth it - to me'' for the hundred time?
They are to some, not to others, that's it.
Bryce and James,
I agree and I never intended to post anything contrary to this point or start an argument. I just wish people would stop using "you get what you pay for" as it is a totally untrue statement in this day and age when referring to binoculars. I find that all this statement does is promote elitism and snobbery, much like twitching/competitive listing and condescension, that really dissuades potential nature enthusiasts from exploring the world of birds and ornithology. As a former naturalist and having worked as an avian technician two Wildlife Refuges, I always attempt to dispel this idea to hopefully encourage more people to join the ranks of birders.
All the best,
Justin
I agree and I never intended to post anything contrary to this point or start an argument. I just wish people would stop using "you get what you pay for" as it is a totally untrue statement in this day and age when referring to binoculars. I find that all this statement does is promote elitism and snobbery, much like twitching/competitive listing and condescension, that really dissuades potential nature enthusiasts from exploring the world of birds and ornithology. As a former naturalist and having worked as an avian technician two Wildlife Refuges, I always attempt to dispel this idea to hopefully encourage more people to join the ranks of birders.
All the best,
Justin
I agree with all your statements but the point is the alphas are better. To quite a few people it is worth the difference in money. gc220 saved up a long time because he wanted the best. There is nothing wrong with that. He will probably have them a long time and enjoy them and Swarovski is a fantastic company that will repair or solve any problems he has. I just got my new Swaro 8x30 CL's from Cameraland and there wasn't a wrist strap with them so I e-mailed Swarovski and they sent one out within an HOUR free of charge. Now that's service. My point is if they are worth the $2K depends on how many hours you had to work to get the $2K. Somebody working at Taco Bell probably isn't going to buy a Swarovski, whereas, an NBA star wouldn't bat an eye and would easily feel the $2K is worth it. They are just a couple of free throws. Besides if you shop around you can save a lot. I got my brand new Swaro 8x30 CL's for $700.00 on E-bay, whereas, they would have been $1060.00 at Cabella's with tax. That's a $360.00 difference. I still feel "You get what you pay for" is a true statement. I have a pile of Chinese binoculars in my binocular graveyard and a couple of them are Frank's Baby's. I am NOT saying you can't get a good enough quality binocular for birding for a moderate price but I am saying the best cost more.
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Hi Justin
How does the elitism/snobbery/condescension stuff manifest itself? Do people carrying alpha bins tell other folks that they can't be serious birders if they only have a Zen Ray? Or do the alpha carriers refuse to talk to birders with 'lesser bins'?
Me and my wife don't visit birding sites much as we are general naturalists with a wide range of interests, but we do visit a local bird reserve perhaps once or twice a year. We see lots of Swaro-toting people but I haven't seen any elitism. I have seen bad behaviour but the folks doing it can be carrying any brand of bins. My instinct is that snobbish people are snobs irrespective of their bins-habits
and there is probably reverse-snobbishness around which says that because you can do birding with modestly priced bins then you must be a snob for buying expensive ones. I am not sure if this latter conclusion is always justified So I was wondering what it is that you see happening that you would describe as a snobbish attitude correlated with possession of expensive bins. BTW we don't own Swaros!
Lee
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Hello Lee,
It's something that is hard to quantify in words, really. I have found two typical responses when I am carrying my Zen-Rays/Leupolds/Vortex as opposed to my Swarovskis (NOTE: not all alpha wielders act this way, I might add, and it is in fact the minority [maybe 25% from my experience], but it does result in disparaging views towards 'birder elitism'):
a) The alpha-toting crowd completely dismisses my birding skills. This actually happens a lot when they see my binoculars and think that somehow correlates to my 'skill' or experience as a birder, particularly when they are not aware that I'm the lead avian technician on the Refuge. I tend to call out a bird, ID it, and then get a lot of wariness regarding my identification. This has actually happened with my supervisor (who has a PhD in ornithology, mind you) as he uses a pair of old Celestron-made Eagle Optics Rangers. I find that when either of us use our alphas (my Swaro, his Zeiss) we tend to get regarded more seriously and have a lot less questions regarding our skill/experience and identifications.
b) When a newbie, using something bought from Wal-Mart for $50, asks about upgrading and people dismiss the idea that you can get anything good aside from an alpha and insist that you really 'need' to spend that $2000 to identify birds because, as they say, "you get what you pay for." This is actually the one that bothers me the most, as it tends dissuade people from birding, thinking that they really will be unable to bird well with anything considered sub-alpha.
As I said previously, I thing Gary made a fantastic choice and should do his best to get as much use and enjoyment out of his binoculars as he can. I'm just really fed up with the "you get what you pay for" slogan that gets championed through the birding ranks, as it, in any real sense, just isn't the case. You DO get increased performance, but it is not a 1:1 increase and so that old phrase does not hold true.
All the best,
Justin
It's something that is hard to quantify in words, really. I have found two typical responses when I am carrying my Zen-Rays/Leupolds/Vortex as opposed to my Swarovskis (NOTE: not all alpha wielders act this way, I might add, and it is in fact the minority [maybe 25% from my experience], but it does result in disparaging views towards 'birder elitism'):
a) The alpha-toting crowd completely dismisses my birding skills. This actually happens a lot when they see my binoculars and think that somehow correlates to my 'skill' or experience as a birder, particularly when they are not aware that I'm the lead avian technician on the Refuge. I tend to call out a bird, ID it, and then get a lot of wariness regarding my identification. This has actually happened with my supervisor (who has a PhD in ornithology, mind you) as he uses a pair of old Celestron-made Eagle Optics Rangers. I find that when either of us use our alphas (my Swaro, his Zeiss) we tend to get regarded more seriously and have a lot less questions regarding our skill/experience and identifications.
b) When a newbie, using something bought from Wal-Mart for $50, asks about upgrading and people dismiss the idea that you can get anything good aside from an alpha and insist that you really 'need' to spend that $2000 to identify birds because, as they say, "you get what you pay for." This is actually the one that bothers me the most, as it tends dissuade people from birding, thinking that they really will be unable to bird well with anything considered sub-alpha.
As I said previously, I thing Gary made a fantastic choice and should do his best to get as much use and enjoyment out of his binoculars as he can. I'm just really fed up with the "you get what you pay for" slogan that gets championed through the birding ranks, as it, in any real sense, just isn't the case. You DO get increased performance, but it is not a 1:1 increase and so that old phrase does not hold true.
All the best,
Justin
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Kammerdiner
Well-known member
I notice that many birders at least look at each others binoculars when they meet. I do because I like binoculars and am curious about what others use. I'm not sure why other birders do, but they often do. If elitism has anything to do with it, well that's their problem.
After that though, it's all about the birds. I tend to glom onto local experts and ask a lot of questions. "Do you see many x, y, or z around here?" "What should I keep an eye out for?"
Last summer a young kid, maybe 22 and interning at a nature preserve, gave me a tour of the place. He knew it like the back of his hand. Knew right where the Blue Grosbeaks were. Pointed out that the Grasshopper Sparrows were a no show that year (I had been looking for them). I followed along like a puppy, enjoying the heck out of the tour (he got me into restricted areas where I had never been). He had an old Nikon Monarch of some kind. I had my 8.5 SV. Neither of us cared so far as I could tell.
Just my experience, but I have to be humble, because as I always tell my wife, "I'm a crap birder."
Mark
After that though, it's all about the birds. I tend to glom onto local experts and ask a lot of questions. "Do you see many x, y, or z around here?" "What should I keep an eye out for?"
Last summer a young kid, maybe 22 and interning at a nature preserve, gave me a tour of the place. He knew it like the back of his hand. Knew right where the Blue Grosbeaks were. Pointed out that the Grasshopper Sparrows were a no show that year (I had been looking for them). I followed along like a puppy, enjoying the heck out of the tour (he got me into restricted areas where I had never been). He had an old Nikon Monarch of some kind. I had my 8.5 SV. Neither of us cared so far as I could tell.
Just my experience, but I have to be humble, because as I always tell my wife, "I'm a crap birder."
Mark
FrankD
Well-known member
FrankD
Well-known member
..and just to practice my new "Dennis" posting style I thought I would reply to something Mark said in a different, subsequent, post.
Mark,
Your comment struck, and Justin's, reminded me of a birding experience, or rather two, that I had this past fall and the year before.
I typically always look at what binocular a person is using when I am out at one of the local Audubon Society walks or down at one the Birding Expos in the "area". I do this just because I am fascinated but what people use. I look for patterns based on demographics mostly but often it is just out of genuine curiosity.
The two incidents I mentioned happened when I was at a birding expo. In both cases it involved running into a very well known birding authority who was in the process of leading a bird walk. On both occasions I noticed the particular binocular he was toting, one of the latest models from the big four. What surprised me was that on both occasions he was paying just as much attention to the binocular I had hung around my neck.
A discussion of the subject never ensued but I always thought it was curious. My guess is he either never heard of the binocular before or was surprised I was toting it. Still, it makes for an interesting point of discussion at this point of the thread.
Mark,
Your comment struck, and Justin's, reminded me of a birding experience, or rather two, that I had this past fall and the year before.
I typically always look at what binocular a person is using when I am out at one of the local Audubon Society walks or down at one the Birding Expos in the "area". I do this just because I am fascinated but what people use. I look for patterns based on demographics mostly but often it is just out of genuine curiosity.
The two incidents I mentioned happened when I was at a birding expo. In both cases it involved running into a very well known birding authority who was in the process of leading a bird walk. On both occasions I noticed the particular binocular he was toting, one of the latest models from the big four. What surprised me was that on both occasions he was paying just as much attention to the binocular I had hung around my neck.
A discussion of the subject never ensued but I always thought it was curious. My guess is he either never heard of the binocular before or was surprised I was toting it. Still, it makes for an interesting point of discussion at this point of the thread.
Hi Justin
OK, got it. That really is unfortunate behaviour.
Although I suppose there is a statistical justification for it in this way:
Someone who is extremely experienced and knowledgeable may indeed carry a modest pair of bins or an alpha.
It is probably true however that a beginner is far more likely to have a modest pair of bins than an alpha. This can be for many reasons but I think it is true. Which means alpha-carriers are probably assessing you as a beginner not disrespecting you because of your bins. Don't get me wrong there are folks with snobbish attitudes out there of course, but if you have to make a snap judgement about someone who is carrying modest bins then the most sensible one would be to assume they are a beginner.
And the confidence of experience can lead one to a quick judgement about a poorly glimpsed bird but this can also look like a reckless identification by a beginner.
Of course you are right about alphas not delivering a 1:1 improvement in performance per $ spent on them. You could say the same about hi-fi audio gear or guitars or cars, many things. But here is another way of looking at it.
Whatever level of performance a Swaro SV gives or Zeiss HT gives you need to pay the sticker price if that is what you want. So to get premium performance and feel you need to pay premium price. Seen in these terms you do get what you pay for. Your point that you can achieve as much with much more modest bins is equally true.
If I say that nobody needs an alpha pair of bins we start getting into a sticky area of what a 'need' is. Some folks are concerned enough at putting food on the table so that talking about owning bins would seem laughable even obscene, no matter how cheap the bins.
One thing everyone should always remember: everyone was a beginner once upon a time, and folks with experience should only encourage beginners and not say anything to put them down.
Here endeth the lesson :eat:
Lee
I'm also among those who have an interest in the binoculars other birders use. Largely for reasons similar to those Frank listed, but I also admit to a little bit of snobbery being involved. That is, I tend to assess how much the binoculars have been used, and use this as a quick and dirty way of estimating how much credibility I can give to that birder's identification skills until more compelling evidence comes forward.
Unfairly or not, I consider old, crappy but little-used binoculars the worst sign, while old, much-used high-quality binoculars bespeak of probable high birding skills.
New good-quality mid-tier binoculars I often see with birders who have lots of experience but don't want to or cannot spend over a thousand euros on premiums. I never doubt their id's because I'd think their binoculars are not up to the task. Another group with these are relatively novice birders who have been at it for long enough to know they are likely to continue and who have "outgrown" their first cheap bins.
New and almost unused alphas are a more difficult nut to crack, and here I need to study the behavior of the carrier. This could be a very experienced birder who has finally retired their 30-year-old Dialyts or Leicas and has not used their new binoculars for much more than a week, but it could also be a newbie with enough loose cash and a wish to be cool. It could also, heaven forbid, be a sign of a binocular freak who swaps binoculars like the rest of us change shirts, in which case I'll just make my own id's and answer in monosyllabic grunts if spoken to.
Kimmo
Unfairly or not, I consider old, crappy but little-used binoculars the worst sign, while old, much-used high-quality binoculars bespeak of probable high birding skills.
New good-quality mid-tier binoculars I often see with birders who have lots of experience but don't want to or cannot spend over a thousand euros on premiums. I never doubt their id's because I'd think their binoculars are not up to the task. Another group with these are relatively novice birders who have been at it for long enough to know they are likely to continue and who have "outgrown" their first cheap bins.
New and almost unused alphas are a more difficult nut to crack, and here I need to study the behavior of the carrier. This could be a very experienced birder who has finally retired their 30-year-old Dialyts or Leicas and has not used their new binoculars for much more than a week, but it could also be a newbie with enough loose cash and a wish to be cool. It could also, heaven forbid, be a sign of a binocular freak who swaps binoculars like the rest of us change shirts, in which case I'll just make my own id's and answer in monosyllabic grunts if spoken to.
Kimmo
james holdsworth
Consulting Biologist
Here, in Ontario, I don't think I have ever seen an instance where any birder was judged by his optics. In fact, most of the birders I know don't really seem to notice or care what someone is carrying.
I am the exception, as I am always checking out people's bins, they could be Vortex's for all I care. If I haven't tried them, I might ask for a peek.
My friends and acquaintances know my abilities and I don't think that would change at all if I started carrying my 1st ''good'' pair of bins again, my Bushnell Custom 10x40's.
Maybe Canadians are just less judgmental
...
FrankD
Well-known member
Lee,
Honestly, although the 'disrespecting' the skill of another birder based on their quality of binoculars is indeed annoying, it really isn't the main concern - just a pet peeve of mine as I tend to detest snobbery/condescension. It is occasionally annoying that people instantly seem to respect my skill better when I pull out my Swaro as opposed to whatever else I'm toting, but alas, life is often annoying.
When I refer to 'need', I did not mean to imply that everyone's need of binoculars was the same, but rather that I have heard other birders tell beginners that they really 'need' alpha-quality stuff to become a good birder. Obviously most people on this forum and elsewhere know this but I have far too often seen a new birder become discouraged by such comments. I would never question someone's decision to spend the most to get the best, as that is a personal decision (with one caveat: I do believe that spending over $700 on the optics of yesteryear - e.g. Leica Trinovid BNs, original Swarovski WB EL, original Zeiss Victory is a poor decision, as generally you can spend around $400-600 on a newer model second-tier binocular and exceed the performance of these classics).
Kimmo,
When I volunteered at an avian rehabilitation center about three years ago I spoke to someone who brought in a box of screech owls that were apparently blown from their nest; after some chatting, this person became ever more interested in birds before asking my advice on how to start. Fast-forward to this summer when I was at a Wildlife Refuge in the same state as this rehab center, and I again run into this person; hanging around her neck are some of the most worn-looking Eagle Optics Rangers (my recommendation at the time was to check out EO and pick out what they thought fit their budget) I've yet to see - turns out she wanted to see the Henslow's Sparrows and Blue Grosbeaks that the Refuge was noted for, so I took her on a private tour. A pretty awesome experience, I must say.
James,
There was a Canadian couple working on the Wood Thrush project taking place at the Refuge I previously mentioned. One of the two had some 10x50 Vortex Razors and the other some of the worst looking, most beat-up REI branded binoculars I've ever seen. They were incredibly nice and experienced. This doesn't really add much to the conversation but I just wanted to share my experience with Canadian birders.
Frank,
I'm all for viewing everyone's binoculars if possible. As a result of my employment with USFWS (I assume), most people are more than willing to offer me a look through their binoculars, which has allowed me to test far more than I'd have ever been able to by just going to local shops. I've also allowed any who have asked to look through my optics (many of which have been purchased based on your reviews and recommendations) and they often come away impressed with what you can get for ~$400-600 (my typical personal limit based on the performance of optics in this price range compared to others).
All the best,
Justin
Honestly, although the 'disrespecting' the skill of another birder based on their quality of binoculars is indeed annoying, it really isn't the main concern - just a pet peeve of mine as I tend to detest snobbery/condescension. It is occasionally annoying that people instantly seem to respect my skill better when I pull out my Swaro as opposed to whatever else I'm toting, but alas, life is often annoying.
When I refer to 'need', I did not mean to imply that everyone's need of binoculars was the same, but rather that I have heard other birders tell beginners that they really 'need' alpha-quality stuff to become a good birder. Obviously most people on this forum and elsewhere know this but I have far too often seen a new birder become discouraged by such comments. I would never question someone's decision to spend the most to get the best, as that is a personal decision (with one caveat: I do believe that spending over $700 on the optics of yesteryear - e.g. Leica Trinovid BNs, original Swarovski WB EL, original Zeiss Victory is a poor decision, as generally you can spend around $400-600 on a newer model second-tier binocular and exceed the performance of these classics).
Kimmo,
When I volunteered at an avian rehabilitation center about three years ago I spoke to someone who brought in a box of screech owls that were apparently blown from their nest; after some chatting, this person became ever more interested in birds before asking my advice on how to start. Fast-forward to this summer when I was at a Wildlife Refuge in the same state as this rehab center, and I again run into this person; hanging around her neck are some of the most worn-looking Eagle Optics Rangers (my recommendation at the time was to check out EO and pick out what they thought fit their budget) I've yet to see - turns out she wanted to see the Henslow's Sparrows and Blue Grosbeaks that the Refuge was noted for, so I took her on a private tour. A pretty awesome experience, I must say.
James,
There was a Canadian couple working on the Wood Thrush project taking place at the Refuge I previously mentioned. One of the two had some 10x50 Vortex Razors and the other some of the worst looking, most beat-up REI branded binoculars I've ever seen. They were incredibly nice and experienced. This doesn't really add much to the conversation but I just wanted to share my experience with Canadian birders.
Frank,
I'm all for viewing everyone's binoculars if possible. As a result of my employment with USFWS (I assume), most people are more than willing to offer me a look through their binoculars, which has allowed me to test far more than I'd have ever been able to by just going to local shops. I've also allowed any who have asked to look through my optics (many of which have been purchased based on your reviews and recommendations) and they often come away impressed with what you can get for ~$400-600 (my typical personal limit based on the performance of optics in this price range compared to others).
All the best,
Justin
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CloseFocus
Well-known member
I was at Magee Marsh in Ohio last year during mother's day weekend, which every midwestern birder knows attracts thousands of birders trying to squeeze through the boardwalks during peak migration. On my way out I stopped at the optics tent and had my Leica 8x42 Silverlines around my neck. The seller said, "I remember you, you're the guy with the Silverlines." I don't know what he might have thought about my birding abilities, but he definitely remembered my binoculars.
Rotherbirder
Well-known member
Ever hear the saying "All the best gear and no idea?" How about "It doesn't mater how good the optics if there is an idiot on the end of them?"
Rotherbirder
JabaliHunter
Well-known member
That happened to mine too after about 10 years. Swarovski serviced them without fuss and they were better than new when they came back...
I thought everybody knew what a Sightron Blue Sky II was! HaHa. I am sure he was wondering what the heck is that thing. That's really funny!..and just to practice my new "Dennis" posting style I thought I would reply to something Mark said in a different, subsequent, post.
Mark,
Your comment struck, and Justin's, reminded me of a birding experience, or rather two, that I had this past fall and the year before.
I typically always look at what binocular a person is using when I am out at one of the local Audubon Society walks or down at one the Birding Expos in the "area". I do this just because I am fascinated but what people use. I look for patterns based on demographics mostly but often it is just out of genuine curiosity.
The two incidents I mentioned happened when I was at a birding expo. In both cases it involved running into a very well known birding authority who was in the process of leading a bird walk. On both occasions I noticed the particular binocular he was toting, one of the latest models from the big four. What surprised me was that on both occasions he was paying just as much attention to the binocular I had hung around my neck.
A discussion of the subject never ensued but I always thought it was curious. My guess is he either never heard of the binocular before or was surprised I was toting it. Still, it makes for an interesting point of discussion at this point of the thread.
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Do you mean resented? Me not understand.
FrankD
Well-known member
Well, you nailed my binocular Dennis. Nicely done. Now show me how really good you are by telling me who the birding authority was and what binocular he was using.
If you guess correctly I promise I won't make fun of you when you dump the SV 8x32 in favor of the new Zeiss 8x32 set to debut shortly.
FrankD
Well-known member
I think a mirror might be a good place to start searching for the truth Debnis.
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