Octopus farming (2 Viewers)

[dantheman]

World's first octopus farm proposals alarm scientists

Methods used on the Spanish farm would be "cruel" to such intelligent animals say experts, as details emerge.

www.bbc.co.uk

Heard something about this on the radio earlier today ... didn't realise this was on the verge of happening. Strikes me as a new low for the human species perhaps ...

 

[winginit]

Thanks for sharing this story. Hope it can be stopped, sounds very inhumane.

 

[Lisa W]

Well hell, seems we keep finding new lows as a species.

 

[01101001]

Far from the only sentient animals.

 

[MiddleRiver]

I find awful as well, but i'm reminded of a hunter podcast 'star' who talks about 'charismatic megafauna' in reference to our tendency to protect/defend cute, storybook-star, anthopomorphic creatures. So of course we defend elephants and lions, but seldom care about insects or rodents etc. I think ALL industrial farming of sentient beings is awful, yet in a pinch while on the road, I'll happily hit the local fast food venue. Does anyone think those cows led a 'good life'?

Too many people and the need to feed them... Octopii are just soooo cute and fascinating, but they aren't the only species we easily abuse in our daily going-ons. Living ethically is not for the lazy!

 

[Andy Lakin]

It seems that we are still learning a lot about how sentient some animals are. Even reading up about about things such as do fish feel pain there seems to be a great deal of debate on the matter with the majority of experts saying that they do but others disagreeing. I would imagine that the millions of fish farmed worldwide have an absolutely dire existence.

 

[Jim M.]

It seems that we are still learning a lot about how sentient some animals are. Even reading up about about things such as do fish feel pain there seems to be a great deal of debate on the matter with the majority of experts saying that they do but others disagreeing. I would imagine that the millions of fish farmed worldwide have an absolutely dire existence.

Anyone who thinks fish do not feel pain is an idiot and not an expert.

 

[Prestdj]

given enough money which it boils down to these people would farm humans anything for money

 

[dantheman]

One rather crucial difference with farming Octopus (as opposed to eg cows) is that we are currently looking at farming a predatory species for food, not a herbivorous species that mankind domesticated millenia ago. Hence the 'new low' concept*.

Farming them because 'we like the taste of them' not because we need to for food.

(Of course there are major ethical issues with fish farming, and domestic land animals) As the major sentient species on the planet ... we know little about them, relatively speaking, yet we look upon them as a resource (personally don't approve of wild caught octopus either but at least they have a chance). It's a different kettle of fish to farming in the general sense.


*(I imagine boiling cats and dogs alive for food also pretty low - not in Europe however)

 

[Andy Lakin]

Anyone who thinks fish do not feel pain is an idiot and not an expert.

It seems that because fish react differently than humans to certain stimuli it is more difficult to say outright that they feel pain in the same way as humans. I've always found it strange that a very large amount of vegetarians will happily eat fish. I know some of the larger fishing companies are experimenting with stunning the fish before they are gutted, but I can't see this catching on unless it is made mandatory due to increased costs.

When the experts advise first cooling these octopuses, crabs, lobsters etc to really low temperatures before killing does it cause even more pain/ prolong the suffering?

 

[dantheman]

I've always found it strange that a very large amount of vegetarians will happily eat fish.

There are a number of different motivations for people being vegetarian, so not that strange imo.

Of course, those vegetarians who don't eat fish (ie vegans, roughly) are a large amount* of vegetarians who don't eat fish.


(amount in either numbers/biomass ... )

 

[opisska]

One rather crucial difference with farming Octopus (as opposed to eg cows) is that we are currently looking at farming a predatory species for food, not a herbivorous species that mankind domesticated millenia ago. Hence the 'new low' concept*.

Farming them because 'we like the taste of them' not because we need to for food.

(Of course there are major ethical issues with fish farming, and domestic land animals) As the major sentient species on the planet ... we know little about them, relatively speaking, yet we look upon them as a resource (personally don't approve of wild caught octopus either but at least they have a chance). It's a different kettle of fish to farming in the general sense.


*(I imagine boiling cats and dogs alive for food also pretty low - not in Europe however)

So the fact that we are killing something for a long time makes it better? Or because they are herbivorous that they are less worthy of not being killed for food?

To me, this is all one big hypocrisy - all these differences are made up just to justify eating some meat. We do not need to eat meat to feed humanity. Eating plant-based food is absurdly more efficient in resources and it has been proven over and over that a plant-based diet is more healthy for people if done correctly.

So either be vegan or lose any standing to be offended by people wanting to farm a specific animal.

 

[dantheman]

So the fact that we are killing something for a long time makes it better? Or because they are herbivorous that they are less worthy of not being killed for food?

To me, this is all one big hypocrisy - all these differences are made up just to justify eating some meat. We do not need to eat meat to feed humanity. Eating plant-based food is absurdly more efficient in resources and it has been proven over and over that a plant-based diet is more healthy for people if done correctly.

So either be vegan or lose any standing to be offended by people wanting to farm a specific animal.

No.

You're completely missing the point. There is a thread or two about meat eating elsewhere. This thread was about farming octopus for consumption as a new low for humanity. (I pretty much agree with where you are coming from though otherwise).

 

[opisska]

But it is very enthusiastically NOT a new low for humanity. There is nothing objectively worse about it than farming any other animal. There is nothing objectively worse about eating cats and dogs compared to eating cows either.

 

[dantheman]

But it is very enthusiastically NOT a new low for humanity. There is nothing objectively worse about it than farming any other animal. There is nothing objectively worse about eating cats and dogs compared to eating cows either.

So would you say that farming, say elephants for meat is precisely the same as farming chickens for meat, or herding and then killing wild dolphins in Japan the same as shooting rabbits?

Degree of intelligence, method of death, other unknown factors as per the article. (The article does infer it is objectively worse in several ways)


You aren't going to unwind millenia of domestication of farm animals just like that. (Although good luck, and I know people are trying). It's worth bringing up and trying to stop some new form of animal torture before it gets off the ground, surely????

Choose your battles ...

 

[opisska]

Yes! How is it not the same? I find the concept of judging which animal is "more worthy of life" almost the ultimate form of hubris. It's really one step away from judging which people are more valuable, I think we had quite enough of that in history.

The "method of death" argument is also absurd. Just to be sure in case it ever comes to that, I would like to hereby state that I do not care about how "humanely" I would be potentially killed - I care about living!

I do not understand how millenia of doing something prevents stopping doing so. Forced labor and serfdom were the reality across Europe until the 17th-18th century. Institutionalized racism existed in the US in the middle of the 20th century. Then suddenly people realized how wrong they were and changed their ways. It is manifestly possible to do.

I am not convinced that singling out specific ways of animal torture creates net good because it shifts the focus from the the much bigger problem of the existing animal torture.

 

[dantheman]

Pragmatism ... pragmatism.

There are a whole lot of different attitudes to eating meat out there ... some rooted in religion, science, need or greed. People aren't ready, and attitudes won't shift that easily ... but it is fair to say that a cusp, or technology shift is on the verge ... (the plant-based McDonalds a week ago was actually better than I recall the meat alternative back when having been. (Still junk food of course ;-) )

Anyway, this is probably the meat eating thread I was thinking of (probably another one a few months earlier too)-

https://www.birdforum.net/threads/w...ironment-be-of-people-eating-less-meat.437056

 

[opisska]

I would conclude this discussion by point out that I find octopus farming senseless from the only practical point of view I can see.

Octopus tastes like storyfoam

 

[dantheman]

Human carnivory as a major driver of vertebrate extinction

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2530064420300614#bib0085 Abstract: Although a considerable part of the anthropogenic impacts on other species has been caused by our habit of eating other animals, little attention has been given to understanding and quantifying how human...

www.birdforum.net

The other one

 

[dantheman]

I would conclude this discussion by point out that I find octopus farming senseless from the only practical point of view I can see.

Octopus tastes like storyfoam

You're one up on/worse than me. I've never eaten octopus (on principle, same as lobster), despite not having been vegetarian per se.

;-)