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PALLID HARRIER (1 Viewer)
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Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
I am thinking hybrid .....
I have no personal experience with Northern Harrier, but fully agree that there are many similarities.
First in the field it is more difficult to tell a Hen from a Pallid than a Pallid from a Monty.
Now for juvenile Northern we get even more confused: less streaking on body than Hen, more warm coloured body, a head pattern pretty close to Pallid.
My question here (only knowing Northern from pictures) is if the Danish bird is not a PallidxHen given that it shows very dark secondaries, a bold seemingly unmarked collar and extremely reduced streaking on upper breast.
Waiting for Dick
Michał Jaro
Well-known member
Coming back to the bird from the post - I don't see any streaking, neither on the sides not on the upper breast - this probably rules out the Northern Harrier (I don't know if the Pallidxhen hybrid).
Dick Forsman opinions:
Dick Forsman opinions:
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If you zoom up the picture of the bird carry the stick you can see dark streaking on the flank.
Hi,
After a long absence from this forum, it’s nice to be back again😊
I haven’t seen the Danish bird, but the available photos IMO favours a juvenile female Northern Harrier more than a possible hybrid.
Here The most important features - in random order:
The very well-defined and complete ‘boa’ which appears uniformly dark brown.
A juvenile hybrid Hen/Pallid doesn’t appear to have as solid, and complete, ‘boa’, coming across more as a “half-collar”.
The Wingformular: the fifth finger (P6) is as long as on a Hen Harrier (and a Northern Harrier), but would be shorter on a hybrid.
The impression I get from the shape of the hand is that of a Hen Harrier.
The number of bars on the underside of the longest primaries, excluding the dark tip is 6 (or perhaps even 7) on the Danish bird, which is typical for Northern, but not for Hen Harrier, nor for hybrids Hen/Pallid (both have usually fewer bars).
The broad, cream coloured collar so typical of juvenile Pallid, is also more pronounced on a hybrid Hen/Pallid, than on the relevant Danish Harrier, where it seems to match the narrower pale collar of a juvenile Northern.
The secondaries are paler on the Danish bird, than on a typical juvenile female Hen Harrier, as well as - from the few photos available to me - also than on a juvenile hybrid Hen/Pallid.
The whole underbody is darker orange-buff than on all but the exceptional individual of a juvenile Hen and is also diagnostically unstreaked except for faint streaks on sides of the breast and on the flanks.
Summing up, I cannot really see any important features against a juvenile female Northern Harrier, but it’s just my penny, and - as Tom said - it would be nice if the Grand Old Man in the (mine) field of raptor hybrids would voice his opinion😉
Alexander Stöhr
Well-known member
Hello Kmo1955,
welcome to Birdforum!
And to all for this interesting thread. I assume Pallid-x-Hen Hybrids should be on the radar these days (?)
welcome to Birdforum!
And to all for this interesting thread. I assume Pallid-x-Hen Hybrids should be on the radar these days (?)
!
A lot of good comments already. Here is my opinion about the Danish bird. Maybe not surprising I think it looks perfect, in all aspects, for a juvenile female NH.
PH x HH hybrids are not uniform in plumage because of various degree of genetic material from the two species and based on sex. So, we can reduce the complexity a bit if we compare the Danish bird with a female (juvenile) hybrid and not mixed it with hybrid males.
I mean a hybrid can be excluded on the following characteristics:
Wing formula
The HH and NH has (more or less) the same wing formula. The Danish bird has a HH wing formula, i.e. broad hand with a HH long P6 and the outer vane shows a clear emargination at the “right” distance from the top. On a hybrid you expect a little bit slimmer hand with a shorter p6 and with an emargination of the outer vane closer to the top.
Boa and collar
The boa on the Danish bird is typical for a juvenile female NH with very dark dense streaking, very well defined, as well as complete around the upper breast. In all it makes the whole head contrast sharply against a light underbody. On a hybrid you expect a paler boa, with more obvious streaking and with more diffuse transition to body and it will not be complete around upper breast.
The collar on the Danish bird is also right for a NH by being less prominent (slimmer and more streaked) than what to expect on a hybrid.
Face colour and pattern
The Danish bird have a very dark head with rather small white/pale spots above and below eye as is typical for NH. A hybrid would expect to have a paler head with larger and more ablong shaped spots (especially below eye).
Body colour
Female juvenile ringtails have in general warmer coloured than the juvenile males. Normally a hybrid would expect to be less orange and warm coloured than a PH. The Danish bird is as least as warm coloured as a PH and with the more rusty or red tone that is so typical for juvenile female NHs.
A comment on the streaking of body. I think the streaking on the Danish bird matches a juvenile female NH perfectly. On the other hand, I think the streaking could be (more or less) identical to a juvenile female hybrid, so I would not use that as a pointer in any direction here.
Comments on underwing pattern and colour
Female juvenile ringtails have in general fewer dark bars on the longest fingers (p9-7) than the juvenile males. A hybrid could also have six dark bars as the Danish birds. In general, a NH would have finer and more regular bars than a hybrid, but I guess it could be identical. So, it should imo be used as a supporting character more than an absolute one.
Female juvenile ringtails have in general darker secondaries than the juvenile males. Since PH has darker secondaries than a HH, you should expect a hybrid to have darker secondaries than HH. The NH has, what I have experience, almost as dark secondaries as a HH. Maybe NH in general has a slimmer dark middle secondary bar that makes the arm a bit paler? The Danish bird has a normal NH/HH dark arm. This is imo also a supporting character.
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Very helpful, thanks
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