Pine Martens (1 Viewer)

[Ghostly Vision]

Hi all

I know this has been asked before, but I wonder if there are any PM sites a little further south than Fort William, but in the West of Scotland?

We will be staying near Loch Lomond at the end of this month, and anything an hour's drive or so would be fine.

Obviously looking for feeding stations, or other stake outs.

Thanks in advance

Sean

 

[honeym]

There's one mentioned here http://www.destination-lochlomond.co.uk/phocadownload/nature/wildlife tourism.pdf
More info here http://www.lochlomondtrossachs.org.uk/index.php/forests-woodlands?id=64
Martin

 

[Farnboro John]

I gather they are now in the New Forest.... oh. Scotland. Sorry! I think I heard some had been imported into the forests of Dumfries and Galloway, but I don't think they are easy.

John

 

[Ghostly Vision]

There's one mentioned here http://www.destination-lochlomond.co.uk/phocadownload/nature/wildlife tourism.pdf
More info here http://www.lochlomondtrossachs.org.uk/index.php/forests-woodlands?id=64
Martin

Thanks for this Martin (appropriate name!)

The Visitor Centre called me back today to say that Pine Marten is in fact a rare occurrence on their feeding station, which is set up for Red Squirrels.

Whether they are knowledgeable or just not there at the right time of day is open to question. However, I don't think I'll risk it.

The same website mentions Wildcat in the area..not sure if there is a remote chance of that?

There is a supposedly reliable site at Loch Katrine further north, so I'm going to give that a go.

Thanks for the link though - might get some nice pics of cute Squirrels!

Sean

 

[Marcus Conway - ebirder]

Hi Sean. The one used on the recent wild islands bbc program is a b and b north of Fort William. If you want the details PM me.

Cheers

 

[MarkHows]

Sean,

I have stayed here http://www.glenloylodge.co.uk/ they feed pine martens every night so pretty much guaranteed.

Mark

 

[Ian Bell]

Thanks for this Martin (appropriate name!)

The Visitor Centre called me back today to say that Pine Marten is in fact a rare occurrence on their feeding station, which is set up for Red Squirrels.


Sean

If It Is set up for Red Squirrel,then In a round about way,It is set up for Pine Marten,who predate Red Squirrel.I would not hold much hope of seeing Wildcat and If you do see something that looks like a Wildcat,It shall possibly be a hybrid from a local Cat.

I didn't know they had been Introduced to the New Forest but If they have,the local bird population shall soon drop as they are vicious killers.There have been many reasons offered for the decline of Capercaillie In the north of Scotland but Pine Marten Increase,has certainly played a part In the Capercaillie decline,so you could say,I am not a Pine Marten fan.

 

[Farnboro John]

I didn't know they had been Introduced to the New Forest but If they have,the local bird population shall soon drop as they are vicious killers.There have been many reasons offered for the decline of Capercaillie In the north of Scotland but Pine Marten Increase,has certainly played a part In the Capercaillie decline,so you could say,I am not a Pine Marten fan.

I think you could benefit from a course in ecology and perhaps English.

Pine Martens are just a part of the natural environment, as is the warmer, wetter weather that, together with deer fences, are accepted by people of sense and research-based knowledge as being primarily responsible for the Scottish Capercaillie's current straits. I must have missed your peer-reviewed paper that produced your startling insight - or perhaps it is just prejudice on your part. Your absurd use of language suggests the latter:

Pine Martens are not "vicious killers" any more than Rabbits are "vicious grass-eaters". The Krays were vicious killers.

You've been listening to too many grouse moor gamekeepers.

John

 

[Ian Bell]

Sorry about my English John and also I admit the "vicious" term may have been used a bit loose.

However,I still subscribe to Pine Marten playing a major part In the decline of Capercaillie.The population In some areas Is still falling,despite the removal of fencing etc and I agree that global warming may play a part but there are still many birds being killed by Marten.

I base my knowledge on conversations with people who work In Forestry and other land workers but I don't know any Keepers,to have a conversation with.If you walk through any wood that holds/held Capercaillie,you shall see for yourself,the droppings Of Martens on the footpaths,which allow you to know that there numbers are rising.Where as before,there were none.

 

[Farnboro John]

Sorry about my English John and also I admit the "vicious" term may have been used a bit loose.

However,I still subscribe to Pine Marten playing a major part In the decline of Capercaillie.The population In some areas Is still falling,despite the removal of fencing etc and I agree that global warming may play a part but there are still many birds being killed by Marten.

I base my knowledge on conversations with people who work In Forestry and other land workers but I don't know any Keepers,to have a conversation with.If you walk through any wood that holds/held Capercaillie,you shall see for yourself,the droppings Of Martens on the footpaths,which allow you to know that there numbers are rising.Where as before,there were none.

The trouble with your contention is that Pine Martens and Capercaillie both inhabited the British Isles from the end of the last Ice Age to when Pine Martens were driven to hanging on in deer forests and Capercaillie were exterminated by man - reintroduced - died out - reintroduced - declined due to already researched and established causes.

You will also find, if you look it up, that Pine Marten numbers are suppressed by Red Foxes (which have never declined despite persecution and also take Capercaillies: in fact I suggest have a much bigger effect as their numbers and their size are both much larger) which constrain Pine Marten activity even where they are relatively common. You will also find that Pine Marten diet has been exhaustively researched and while a wide variety of prey are occasionally taken, the vast majority of the diet consists of small mammals (voles rather than squirrels, BTW), small birds and their eggs, berries and insects.

Because of the genuine threats such as persecution that all predators face, particularly in game rearing areas, you must not as a conservationist be so irresponsible as to make claims which are contrary to already undertaken research simply because you yourself are prejudiced against particular species. The fact that your claims are based on the occurrence of droppings noticed by you but not even a proper transect or their analysed contents is symptomatic of a very unscientific and wholly inappropriate approach.

Thank you for taking the point about use of vicious though. Its not a term that is useful in describing animal behaviour.

John

 

[Ian Bell]

Firslty,sorry for not being as educated as yourself and my poor English (which Is my second language) compared to your own.The Fox Is controlled In most areas of the Highlands,whereas the Pine Marten are protected and I would suggest,this makes the balance In the favour of the Marten survival
when It comes to numbers.

I am also aware of the research that has taken place and what has been written and the certain factors of why the Capercaillie Is struggling but as well as the research people who do this,I also am Inclined to listen to the people who have worked In the area for decades and what they have to say,which Is based on real life experience In Capercaillie/Pine Marten habitat.

Do you honestly think a Pine Marten would Ignore a brood of young Capercaillie,walking through Bilberry on the Forest floor with the hen ? Those young birds are the future population of the species In the UK.Yes,the weather plays a part In some years In killing young birds,particularly due to wet weather In early fledging periods but the Pine Marten also takes young birds and even In good breeding years,when the weather has been kind,the numbers still struggle In particular,In breeding areas outwith Strathspey.

We could debate this point for some time but I have put my point across and shall leave It there but anyone who does not think that Pine Marten kill Capercaillie are far mistaken.

 

[Farnboro John]

Firslty,sorry for not being as educated as yourself and my poor English (which Is my second language) compared to your own.The Fox Is controlled In most areas of the Highlands,whereas the Pine Marten are protected and I would suggest,this makes the balance In the favour of the Marten survival
when It comes to numbers.

I am also aware of the research that has taken place and what has been written and the certain factors of why the Capercaillie Is struggling but as well as the research people who do this,I also am Inclined to listen to the people who have worked In the area for decades and what they have to say,which Is based on real life experience In Capercaillie/Pine Marten habitat.

Do you honestly think a Pine Marten would Ignore a brood of young Capercaillie,walking through Bilberry on the Forest floor with the hen ? Those young birds are the future population of the species In the UK.Yes,the weather plays a part In some years In killing young birds,particularly due to wet weather In early fledging periods but the Pine Marten also takes young birds and even In good breeding years,when the weather has been kind,the numbers still struggle In particular,In breeding areas outwith Strathspey.

We could debate this point for some time but I have put my point across and shall leave It there but anyone who does not think that Pine Marten kill Capercaillie are far mistaken.

I certainly think a Pine Marten, which is not a large animal, would think twice when confronted by a Caper hen!

The weather has an effect right across the range in both core and marginal habitats: Pine Martens cannot grow their population to exceed the carrying capacity of the environment which varies across the range of habitats and to keep Pine Martens at any particular level must provide the minimum year-round food for that population. Pine Martens consequently cannot get into a position to have a significant effect on Capercaillie populations even if they are physically capable of taking chicks over their few week vulnerable period in the face of parental protection. In addition proper long-term studies of dropping contents show that Capercaillie are utterly insignificant in Pine Marten diet. What you say will not bear even the lightest of scrutiny.

Also, I do not agree with you about foresters and other local workers. What you say is very close to the nonsense farmers speak about them being the ones that understand what the land needs. A less understanding, more inappropriate bunch of countryside stewards you could not find than farmers, and mere presence on the land does not confer expertise on anyone. That is why sensible people depend on properly conducted research.

However, it is a constant mark of the truly prejudiced to maintain a viewpoint that is unsupportable in the face of facts brought to their attention and I must give up now, merely hoping that others can see your opinions for what they are.

John

 

[Teamscotch]

Your absurd use of language suggests the latter

I have to say that this is a rather bizarre, unpleasant and unnecessary comment, particularly on an international forum.

 

[Farnboro John]

I have to say that this is a rather bizarre, unpleasant and unnecessary comment, particularly on an international forum.

I understand your comment - though whether or not mine was well-phrased I would certainly argue that it was necessary: indeed I believe I have already explained its necessity.

My comment was aimed at a resident of the British Isles whose native language is English and whose command of the language I expected to be considerable, particularly bearing in mind the very high standards to which Scottish education adheres compared to the current sorry mess south of the border. I would of course not have phrased it quite that way had the offending description been written by someone with a limited acquaintance with English. If you are arguing that Scots do require such allowances to be made for them then I will do so in future.o

John

 

[nicklittlewood]

Yes some slightly bizarre comments in both sides but then I guess this is a Forum for open debate.

For what its worth, my take on available evidence is that Pine Martens can predate a significant proportion of Caper broods (around a third is a figure that comes to mind from memory - I am sure that this will vary and can be locally higher) and that given the perilous state of Capers in Scotland at present, this can have a downward pressue on the population.

I simply don't understand John's arguments about martens not being able to have a significant effect on Caper because they need year-round resources to sustain populations. For examples, rats can supress seabird colonies even though they need other resources for eight months of the year. Also, the relatively low proportion of Caper in marten diets does not in itself prevent the predation that does occur from having a population-level effect. As an aide, I know of just two peer-reviewed studies analysing marten diets in Scotland (there may be more - apologies if I have overlooked some) and these are both from areas that have no or very few Caper. There was also a paper from Ireland published in the last couple of days (again no Caper, of course, but of relevance to Scottish populations). In any case, this is of only marginally relevance as the importance of martens as a predator on Caper does not necessarily relate to the importance of Caper as a food item for matens anyway.

However the key point is from the evidence I am aware of, Pine Martens do not appear to have been the primary driver of Caper population declines and their impact is only so potentially serious because the cumulative effect over recent decades of deer fences, habitat loss and degradation, disturbance and poor weather (especially at the time when chicks are small) has left the Scottish Caper population so close to extinction. Even then it is a complex situation and Caper breeding success at one plantation site in Speyside remains high for reasons that are not well understood.

Pine Martens are currently recolonising parts of Scotland from which they were eliminated through persecution by humans. This should be celebrated as a success. Yes they do eat birds but they eat a lot more mice and berries. I can understand land managers being angry if they find predation by martens. Let's not deny that they can impact on borderline Caper populations but let's also not make them a scapegoat for the more significant underlying causes.

Nick

 

[aeshna5]

I'm pleased that the Pine Marten is doing well in its core area + hope it continues to expand its distribution. I personally wouldn't have thought they are having a major impact on Capers- certainly far less than poor weather on breeding success.

However last year I went on a trip to the Highlands with Speyside Wildlife + of course Pine Marten is always a creature punters want to see + I was amazed when the guide we had said he believed they should be culled. His views are perhaps not those of the company itself who gain some of their income from people wishing to see this splendid carnivore, but just couldn't believe what I was hearing from this guy!

 

[kitefarrago]

I was amazed when the guide we had said he believed they should be culled.

Unfortunately that seems to be a gut reaction by many towards predators, and this attitude seems to be particularly strong both in this country and in the US among those who live in the countryside/wilder parts.

These people often claim expertise because of this (and resent the idea that `city dwellers' insist on telling them `how to conduct their own affairs'), but quizzing them about any evidence to support their attitude that whichever species really does cause the serious damage they claim often shows nothing deeper than sightings (of the animals or signs of their presence) without any attempt to seriously quantify what it means to have `too many' predators, and how they know the numbers have gone beyond some threshhold. When pressed further, the same people typically withdraw to a `I've lived here all my life and know what I speak of' position.

It's ironic that most of us in the Western world probably particularly enjoy the big cat excerpts in documentaries from other parts of the world, while at the same time being unwilling to support what predatory species are left in our surroundings.

There clearly are some very deeply seated cultural prejudices at work here (and `vicious' or `mean' are often used terms to describe predator behaviour) and ultimately we can only solve this problem by education. I wonder whether the link with predators elsewhere could be used here. or whether the `we can't allow too many predators to exist' attitude would instead be transported across. Maybe when teaching ecology in schools one could make the point more forcefully that (at least in an intact ecosystem) it is prey numbers that control those of predators and not the other way round.

Andrea

 

[Farnboro John]

Unfortunately that seems to be a gut reaction by many towards predators, and this attitude seems to be particularly strong both in this country and in the US among those who live in the countryside/wilder parts.

These people often claim expertise because of this (and resent the idea that `city dwellers' insist on telling them `how to conduct their own affairs'), but quizzing them about any evidence to support their attitude that whichever species really does cause the serious damage they claim often shows nothing deeper than sightings (of the animals or signs of their presence) without any attempt to seriously quantify what it means to have `too many' predators, and how they know the numbers have gone beyond some threshhold. When pressed further, the same people typically withdraw to a `I've lived here all my life and know what I speak of' position.

It's ironic that most of us in the Western world probably particularly enjoy the big cat excerpts in documentaries from other parts of the world, while at the same time being unwilling to support what predatory species are left in our surroundings.

There clearly are some very deeply seated cultural prejudices at work here (and `vicious' or `mean' are often used terms to describe predator behaviour) and ultimately we can only solve this problem by education. I wonder whether the link with predators elsewhere could be used here. or whether the `we can't allow too many predators to exist' attitude would instead be transported across. Maybe when teaching ecology in schools one could make the point more forcefully that (at least in an intact ecosystem) it is prey numbers that control those of predators and not the other way round.

Andrea

Exactly

John

 

[MarkHows]

May be of interest

http://www.mammal.org.uk/sites/default/files/Pine marten & Capercaillie Position Statement 2013.pdf

Mark

 

[occasional]

Is anyone aware of clear evidence that pine martens definitely eat live adult birds ?

They like eggs and even roast lamb, but there is remarkably little interest in raw chicken.