• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Prism size in spotting scopes. (1 Viewer)

John goshawk

Well-known member
Scotland
Dear All,

When reading spotting scope reviews I often read that spotting scopes with large prisms help image quality.
Can anyone explain why this is?

Many thanks in advance.
John
 
Probably, the simple answer is to optimise the amount of light passing through the instrument to the eye. The larger objective = brighter image. Smaller prisms would result in a narrower light beam? Long time since I studied Physics I'm afraid.
 
Porro binos use large prisms to enable them to provide wide angle views, many old models were essentially “all prism” and not very lightweight.

Peter
 
Thanks for trying to explain it. What I'm often reading is scopes like the Celestron regal, sometimes are heavier due to the manufacturer using larger prisms which are used to provide better quality image?!
 
Hi John,

Could you supply links to some the reviews that claim the use of larger prisms provides a better quality image? I'm just curious as to what they are thinking.

Henry
 
Sorry I can't find them right now.It was mentioned in two reviews. One for celestron regal and another opticron scope. The answer seems to be to increase light transmission, via zero vignetting. It appears that sometimes vignetting occurs with smaller prisms without us knowing - provided a slightly dimmer image.
 
OK, I was curious because there's more than one discussion that could be had on the subject of prism size. I think the main way prism vignetting happens in spotting scopes involves a certain focusing system that is mostly used in inexpensive scopes now, but was very common in the past. It works by moving one prism in a Porro prism cluster back and forth to change the physical length of the light path between the objective lens and the eyepiece. The problem is that there is only one optimal position for that prism and as it is moved to lengthen the light path it introduces increasing vignetting of the clear aperture as the focus distance shortens. Typically a scope using that system with an 80mm aperture at infinity focus will be stopped down to something like 60mm-65mm at 5 meters. I'm pretty sure the Celestron regal uses that focuser and probably some inexpensive Opticrons as well.

I've seen examples of careless designs causing a loss of clear aperture. The Zeiss Gavia I tested, for instance, had an 85 mm objective lens that was inexplicably stopped down to 80mm by an undersized internal aperture and there is the infamous example of the 95mm Zeiss Harpia intentionally designed to lose aperture at low magnifications resulting in a 57mm clear aperture at 23x.

Some possible effects on image quality from large prism size unrelated to vignetting would include the use of oversized Schmidt prisms in most Nikon Fieldscopes that act to prevent the roof prism's edge from splitting the objective lens's light cone and the extra internal glass length of large prisms adding spherical overcorrection that may help reduce the typical under correction of most short focal length spotting scopes.
 
Last edited:
OK, I was curious because there's more than one discussion that could be had on the subject of prism size. I think the main way prism vignetting happens in spotting scopes involves a certain focusing system that is mostly used in inexpensive scopes now, but was very common in the past. It works by moving one prism in a Porro prism cluster back and forth to change the physical length of the light path between the objective lens and the eyepiece. The problem is that there is only one optimal position for that prism and as it is moved to lengthen the light path it introduces increasing vignetting of the clear aperture as the focus distance shortens. Typically a scope using that system with an 80mm aperture at infinity focus will be stopped down to something like 60mm-65mm at 5 meters. I'm pretty sure the Celestron regal uses that focuser and probably some inexpensive Opticrons as well.

I've seen examples of careless designs causing a loss of clear aperture. The Zeiss Gavia I tested, for instance, had an 85 mm objective lens that was inexplicably stopped down to 80mm by an undersized internal aperture and there is the infamous example of the 95mm Zeiss Harpia intentionally designed to lose aperture at low magnifications resulting in a 57mm clear aperture at 23x.

Some possible effects on image quality from large prism size unrelated to vignetting would include the use of oversized Schmidt prisms in most Nikon Fieldscopes that act to prevent the roof prism's edge from splitting the objective lens's light cone and the extra internal glass length of large prisms adding spherical overcorrection that may help reduce the typical under correction of most short focal length spotting scopes.
Fascinating Henry and very helpful. Do the older Nikon fieldscopes (II and III) use porro prisms instead of a Schmidt roof?
Thanks John
 
The Fieldscopes II and III use focusing lenses and Porro for the straight versions and oversized Schmidt for the angled versions, same for the Monarch EDs except for the 50mm Monarch ED which uses Porro for both straight and angled with the addition of a semi-pentaprism in the angled version and with focusing by a moving Porro prism in both straight and angled. The Fieldscope I was only available in a straight version using Porro and a focusing lens.
 
Some possible effects on image quality from large prism size unrelated to vignetting would include the use of oversized Schmidt prisms in most Nikon Fieldscopes that act to prevent the roof prism's edge from splitting the objective lens's light cone and the extra internal glass length of large prisms adding spherical overcorrection that may help reduce the typical under correction of most short focal length spotting scopes.

Hi,

apart from the adverse effects of vignetting due to undersized prisms, the trick used by Nikon with the oversized Schmidt prism to move the roof edge outside the light cone and thus removing the need for phase correction is probably the reason for the large prisms are beneficial "mythos"...

Joachim
 
This is a very interesting and enlightening topic!

Regarding the Nikon EDIII and ED82 specifically, would there be any advantage of the straight porro design compared to the angled Schmidt - in terms of optical performance, based on average assembly quality? In other words, would one design be more robust to variations in assembly? I realize that might be a difficult question to answer, but general thoughts would be appreciated.

Likewise, assuming excellent samples of each, would the angled have the potential for better optical performance than the porro, or vice versa?

My interest in these scopes, especially the ED82, is high resolution and magnification. I have one sample that seems very good but am very interested in the designs.

Thanks for any insights!

Jason
 
Hi,

a porro design is even better than an oversized Schmidt prism as it does not have any of the disadvantages of a Schmidt prism:

  • 2 surfaces used in reflection and transmission and the question for what to optimize the coatings (3 for a Schmidt Pechan pair)
  • phase shifting due to reflection on the roof edge and loss of center resolution due to interference effects (this is removed by the oversized Schmidt prism)
  • possible spikes due to non-perfect roof edge (this is removed by the oversized Schmidt prism)

The last disadvantage of the Schmidt Pechan prism pair used in binoculars, the need for a mirror coating does not apply to to a single Schmidt prism.

As for the Opticron sales pitch, I would say mainly marketing blurb. There is a correct prism size for a specific optical design, dictated by the field stop diameter of the EP (and thus the desired true field) and the steepness of the light cone (and thus the focal ratio oft the objective) plus a little bit extra so the imperfections near the edges are not in the light cone. And as these are porros, no magic trick here...
One could of course say, the XL prisms allow for wide angle EPs and thus wide tfov... but that's not how an optical design is done... Normally the designer gets the desired optical (aperture, magnification, tfov and ER) and physical (dimensions, roof or porro design and weight) data and then tries to find a design which satisfies all boundary conditions...

Joachim
 
Thank you, sir!

That information is super helpful. I wasn't sure what relationship exists between porro binoculars and porro scope, and didn't want to assume anything!

When the coatings are optimized in the Schmidt prism, is it a balance between color wavelengths and resolution? Or contrast?

Jason
 
Great info. I understood all, apart from
'The last disadvantage of the Schmidt Pechan prism pair used in binoculars, the need for a mirror coating does not apply to to a single Schmidt prism.'
I thought a single Schmidt would still need/is usually coated?
 
Great info. I understood all, apart from
'The last disadvantage of the Schmidt Pechan prism pair used in binoculars, the need for a mirror coating does not apply to to a single Schmidt prism.'
I thought a single Schmidt would still need/is usually coated?
It's ok , I worked it out!
Thanks again,
John
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top