R7 for bird photography and birds in flight (3 Viewers)

[Evan Atkinson]

Hi all, I am looking at upgrading to the R7 late this year or when I turn 18 (1 year and 2 months) and I am aware of some of the issues, such as rolling shutter. I really enjoy shooting birds in flight, and I'm aware that rolling shutter occurs frequently in electronic mode when shooting fast moving subjects. I currently own the 7dmkii and I'm really enjoying it, but the bird AF, EVF and tracking are real pulls for me. So a few questions:

How often does rolling shutter occur in electronic mode when shooting birds in flight?

How does the R7 fair with EF lenses such as the EF100-400 II?

Does the bird AF pick up the eye often?

A friend of mine has the R7, so I will be having a go with it soon, but I would like perspectives from other photographers on here.

Kind regards,

Evan

 

[Farnboro John]

I've had one since the launch and use it almost all the time in preference to my old 7Dii, which however remains supreme in the dark (and I do mean the dark, the EVF seems to just give up in very low light and not display anything at all).

I don't use electronic mode, so no rolling shutter issues for me.

My 100-400 mk ii is more or less permanently attached to the R7 and if anything pulls more performance from it than the 7dii did.

The AF is pretty good at identifying eyes at reasonably close range. The animal tracking is great at holding a manoeuvring bird in the sky. Cluttered backgrounds not always so good - but better than anything you've had before I'll bet.

John

 

[edenwatcher]

Agree with much of what John has written. I use the same combination and it can resolve more detail than the 7DII could.
The animal eye focus is reliable if the subject is close enough (and if there is enough light - it struggled with a close dipper in poor light last week)
I typically do use electronic shutter, though I have it set so that I can switch to electronic first curtain for flying birds.
The thing I really hate is the large size of the fine spot focus point - it is significantly coarser than that on the 7DII and for birds at moderate distance is a complete nightmare (e.g. ducks, other swimmers). I just don't feel I can trust it, as it will focus on the water behind the bird most of the time.
Getting it configured how you want it can be a real challenge - I have changed mine so many times in the 4.5 months I have had it.
Sensor noise is significantly lower than the 7DII.

I would still prefer there to be a 7DIII but it isn't going to happen

Rob

 

[Barred Wobbler]

I've just run a test with my R7 with the 100-500 attached, using the EVF in a very dull corner of this room on a black tripod case and camera bag. The meter is giving an exposure of 1/20s, F7.1, ISO 6400, so that's pretty dark, yet the EVF and the rear screen are both showing a bright view and the focus point is locking onto detail. Is your Exp.SIM (Red screen 9 in set up 'Display Simulation') working John?

Regarding rolling shutter for birds in flight, it really starts to show if you are panning to follow a passing subject and it flies in front of vertical objects such as fence posts, telegraph poles or vertical trees and buildings. These objects in the background will develop a tilt. Sometimes you can live with it, others not and if it's just a blank sky or sea background it doesn't matter at all. If the bird is coming towards you, so you're not panning, it doesn't show.The other impact, not so common, is weird distortions of rapidly moving wing tips on small birds.

Rolling shutter also can give distortions to the subject of you are waving the camera around, trying to locate it. You can occasionally find that between two perfectly good shots you have another where the bird is distorted into something like a cigar shape as you pulled the camera rapidly down across it. This occurs at whatever shutter speed you've set because it's a function of the slow read-out speed of the sensor. It's not usually a big deal because you've got loads of good shots before and after that you'd have missed with another camera. I think I've posted examples of this in the other R7 thread in October, but I've put an example below of a distorted hobby (3rd image). I wasn't too bothered about that, because apart from a very small number of distortions, I had literally hundreds of crackers (images 4,5&6).

Rolling shutter problems are a real thing, but I think they get over-stated.

Of course, if you're using Electronic First Curtain Shutter, as I normally do you get no rolling shutter impact at all, and you'll still get birds in flight at 15 frames per second, but it's a bit noisy.

This Mallard shot from a few days ago using electronic shutter shows a bit of rolling shutter on the reeds in the background, but it's not a game-changer in this instance. The Egret probably has some too, but you can't tell because the water background has no verticals. I was more annoyed at messing up the exposure and blowing out the plumage highlights when the white bird suddenly showed up and I didn't have time to change my exposure settings from the darker subjects that were there.

I normally just use ESFC shutter, but that day I'd reverted to electronic for an experiment.

 

[Farnboro John]

I've just run a test with my R7 with the 100-500 attached, using the EVF in a very dull corner of this room on a black tripod case and camera bag. The meter is giving an exposure of 1/20s, F7.1, ISO 6400, so that's pretty dark, yet the EVF and the rear screen are both showing a bright view and the focus point is locking onto detail. Is your Exp.SIM (Red screen 9 in set up 'Display Simulation') working John?

Regarding rolling shutter for birds in flight, it really starts to show if you are panning to follow a passing subject and it flies in front of vertical objects such as fence posts, telegraph poles or vertical trees and buildings. These objects in the background will develop a tilt. Sometimes you can live with it, others not and if it's just a blank sky or sea background it doesn't matter at all. If the bird is coming towards you, so you're not panning, it doesn't show.The other impact, not so common, is weird distortions of rapidly moving wing tips on small birds.

Rolling shutter also can give distortions to the subject of you are waving the camera around, trying to locate it. You can occasionally find that between two perfectly good shots you have another where the bird is distorted into something like a cigar shape as you pulled the camera rapidly down across it. This occurs at whatever shutter speed you've set because it's a function of the slow read-out speed of the sensor. It's not usually a big deal because you've got loads of good shots before and after that you'd have missed with another camera. I think I've posted examples of this in the other R7 thread in October, but I've put an example below of a distorted hobby (3rd image). I wasn't too bothered about that, because apart from a very small number of distortions, I had literally hundreds of crackers (images 4,5&6).

Rolling shutter problems are a real thing, but I think they get over-stated.

Of course, if you're using Electronic First Curtain Shutter, as I normally do you get no rolling shutter impact at all, and you'll still get birds in flight at 15 frames per second, but it's a bit noisy.

This Mallard shot from a few days ago using electronic shutter shows a bit of rolling shutter on the reeds in the background, but it's not a game-changer in this instance. The Egret probably has some too, but you can't tell because the water background has no verticals. I was more annoyed at messing up the exposure and blowing out the plumage highlights when the white bird suddenly showed up and I didn't have time to change my exposure settings from the darker subjects that were there.

I normally just use ESFC shutter, but that day I'd reverted to electronic for an experiment.

I'm talking about taking night pictures where flash is vital. With a red torch I can see perfectly with an optical viewfinder but the EVF fails utterly to show a picture with the same illumination. In Finland last year I had to give up on the R7 in low light, luckily I had a 7dii with me as a back-up.

It's possible I can change the settings as you suggest (I might try tonight, if I do I'll report back) but actually I think given the number of times in the past I've cocked shots up subsequently by forgetting to change them back that a separate body set up appropriately is probably the answer.

John

 

[Evan Atkinson]

Thank you all for the replies and the photos, is there a way to try and prevent the rolling shutter from occurring? Does it come down to panning technique or does it happen regardless? I am aware of how the trees and posts are bad for the photography aspect because they could go literally anywhere because of the RS.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

I'm talking about taking night pictures where flash is vital. With a red torch I can see perfectly with an optical viewfinder but the EVF fails utterly to show a picture with the same illumination. In Finland last year I had to give up on the R7 in low light, luckily I had a 7dii with me as a back-up.

It's possible I can change the settings as you suggest (I might try tonight, if I do I'll report back) but actually I think given the number of times in the past I've cocked shots up subsequently by forgetting to change them back that a separate body set up appropriately is probably the answer.

John

When I'm doing night shots, including stars and stuff, I can struggle, especially with focus, which is when I switch to manual focus and use the focus highlighter to show what's in focus, but that's not infallible, I admit. A shot here of the catchily-named Comet C/2022 E3ZTF taken the night before last with the R5 (not my R7) and the 100-500.

Sometimes boosting the viewfinder and screen brightness in the menu can help, but conversely I find that if I'm wanting to see how a night landscape photo is looking, I actually have to turn the brightness down from my daylight use settings, because the bright screen can make it look like I'm over-exposing when I'm not.

I do find that the EVF and rear screen are a boon when using very dark ND filters, such as a 10 stop, or even a 10 stop plus a 6 stop. Looking through the optical viewfinder of my 7Dii or 5Div for such shots would just give me blackness, making composition a bit of a guess, unless faffing about taking off the filter to compose the shot then putting it back on to shoot - a nuisance with multiple shots. With the EVF of the R5 and R7 it's no bother. Even with a seemingly black 10 stop filter fitted I can still see the view that I'm getting. The daylight shot of Coquet Island was taken with my R5 on a sunny spring day with stacked 10 stop and 6 stop filters in front of the lens, allowing a 30 second exposure at F11 and ISO 400. At 16 stops the view finder was a bit dark, but framing was possible, whereas with 10 stops it would have looked like daylight. No way could I have framed that with filters fitted on the 5D.

I don't generally use flash outdoors, so I can't comment on that I'm afraid, but I find that when I'm using it indoors with a Canon Speedlight that once everything is switched on half-pressing the button transforms what had been a dark and gloomy viewfinder into what the flash will make it be on exposure.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Thank you all for the replies and the photos, is there a way to try and prevent the rolling shutter from occurring? Does it come down to panning technique or does it happen regardless? I am aware of how the trees and posts are bad for the photography aspect because they could go literally anywhere because of the RS.

There isn't anything you can do about rolling shutter with the electronic shutter on the R7 other than not use Electronic shutter. It's down to the way the sensor is scanned from top to bottom. With Mechanical or Electronic First Curtain shutter, there is no rolling shutter at all and you still get 15 frames per second.

I've taken over 20,000 shots with my R7 now and although a lot were with ES (partly because it's hammering away at 30fps like a machine gun), I'd say the majority were with my go-to Electronic First Curtain Shutter. It's fine.

 

[njlarsen]

You may be completely set on Canon as the brand you want and if so, ignore the rest of this post. If not, do consider the OM1 (still labeled Olympus). With an electronic shutter able to shoot 120 images per second, you would expect that the time required to read the sensor is much less and therefore that the risk of rolling shutter is much less.

Niels

 

[Farnboro John]

When I'm doing night shots, including stars and stuff, I can struggle, especially with focus, which is when I switch to manual focus and use the focus highlighter to show what's in focus, but that's not infallible, I admit. A shot here of the catchily-named Comet C/2022 E3ZTF taken the night before last with the R5 (not my R7) and the 100-500.

Sometimes boosting the viewfinder and screen brightness in the menu can help, but conversely I find that if I'm wanting to see how a night landscape photo is looking, I actually have to turn the brightness down from my daylight use settings, because the bright screen can make it look like I'm over-exposing when I'm not.

I do find that the EVF and rear screen are a boon when using very dark ND filters, such as a 10 stop, or even a 10 stop plus a 6 stop. Looking through the optical viewfinder of my 7Dii or 5Div for such shots would just give me blackness, making composition a bit of a guess, unless faffing about taking off the filter to compose the shot then putting it back on to shoot - a nuisance with multiple shots. With the EVF of the R5 and R7 it's no bother. Even with a seemingly black 10 stop filter fitted I can still see the view that I'm getting. The daylight shot of Coquet Island was taken with my R5 on a sunny spring day with stacked 10 stop and 6 stop filters in front of the lens, allowing a 30 second exposure at F11 and ISO 400 at 16 stops the view finder was a bit dark, but framing was possible, whereas with 10 stops it would have looked like daylight. No way could I have framed that with filters fitted on the 5D.

I don't generally use flash outdoors, so I can't comment on that I'm afraid, but I find that when I'm using it indoors with a Canon Speedlight that once everything is switched on half-pressing the button transforms what had been a dark and gloomy viewfinder into what the flash will make it be on exposure.

Yep, you have it, focus is the issue, and for doing wildlife at night autofocus is kind of critical (I've enough to do with finding framing and shooting, tbh: plus the animals don't always keep still!)

Here are some from Western Sahara in 2019 (seems an age ago now....) they include the African Golden Wolf that bolted, but we'd disturbed it off the road and squeaked it back in and I honestly don't think we could have held it much longer.....

The pictures have the following common factors: spotlight enabling autofocus, flash to firm up the photo and some of the animals are a very long way off with a good deal of brightening in post.....

I'll try the R7 tonight on my foxes and see how that goes.

John

Photos:

Ruppell's Fox

African Golden Wolf

Another Ruppell's Fox

Lesser Egyptian Gerbil

Pharaoh Eagle Owl

 

[Farnboro John]

Tried the R7 on the foxes last night, seems fine, bearing in mind they are at close range. I'll put a couple up later but they may not be for the squeamish - Smudge has lost a fight and an eye. Next I need to go and try in the field, night safari style, but that will have to wait a day or so.

The problem in Finland was that no illumination was allowed. With a supporting light there seems to be no problem at all.

John

 

[Roy C]

Oystercatcher - R7 + RF 800mm f11. with the 1280mm fov its not always easy to pick-up flyers in the view finder but when you do the R7 latches on to the bird no problem.

 

[Farnboro John]

Right. Some fox photos from last night. Repeat: NOT for the delicate. I'll put in some notes against each. One general point is that normally I deal with flash eyes, which are caused by the presence of a reflective layer, the "tapetum lucidum", behind the retina that allows animals to use light twice (going in each direction through the retina) and thereby double the stimulus and hence ability to see in low light. For speed of posting I haven't.

John

1 and 2 Smudge after losing a fight (I assume.) He's lost his right eye, got a bad bite on his right face, a lesser one on his left face and I rather think something at the base of his left ear. He's got two bites on his left leg that look nice and clean and may be older than the other damage. Poor Smudge. Before the start of this winter he'd never got involved in fighting and he was such a handsome fox.... hopefully we can at least support him till the basic injuries heal.

3 and 6 Patch. He's pretty much all right, he was holding his left fore up until a few days ago and still has the slightest of limps: you can see he's most likely had a bite on his paw by one of the claws.

4 and 5 Cub. One of the 2022 generation, he hasn't got a name yet as he comes and goes and hasn't shown a particular feature or personality. He's got a bite on his rear left leg which is causing him to keep it held up. Perhaps driven by need arising from his injury he now sometimes comes close to the step though previously he's tended to hang back.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Three weeks ago I spent a little time on the river at the bottom of our street playing with the R7/ RF100-500 in Electronic shutter as an experiment. For a couple of months I'd avoided it in favour of Electronic First Curtain to avoid rolling shutter, but I gave it another go with some moorhens who even in the middle of winter were starting to feel a bit frisky. My aim was to get them in flight as they engaged in short bursts along the river. Only a tiny proportion of the images showed rolling shutter to any noticeable degree, largely because the reflection of the opposite bank didn't include any obvious upright lines from the trees there, only the broken wavelets on the water's surface.

All shots were taken at 1/2500 sec. Just for a laugh I've included a slightly missed-focus shot to show what can happen to swiftly-moving wing tips when the Rolling Shutter Witch gets her wand out.

 

[Barred Wobbler]

A lot of missed shots a couple of days ago at a local country park feeding station, but a lot of hits too, many times more hits than I would have achieved without the R series autofocus. I'd not have had a tenth of the successes with my old 7Dii rather than the R7. I was avoiding shots at the feeder, so I only had the briefest of moments as the long-tailed tits came to a perch near to the feeder to check all was clear before flicking off after only 3 or 4 seconds, not much time to spot the bird, frame it, find focus and fire a burst on Electronic First Curtain Shutter (I'm not using full electronic at the moment).

I would say the vast majority of the misses occurred when the bird flicked away just as the camera hit focus and before I had time to press the shutter.

 

[Evan Atkinson]

A lot of missed shots a couple of days ago at a local country park feeding station, but a lot of hits too, many times more hits than I would have achieved without the R series autofocus. I'd not have had a tenth of the successes with my old 7Dii rather than the R7. I was avoiding shots at the feeder, so I only had the briefest of moments as the long-tailed tits came to a perch near to the feeder to check all was clear before flicking off after only 3 or 4 seconds, not much time to spot the bird, frame it, find focus and fire a burst on Electronic First Curtain Shutter (I'm not using full electronic at the moment).

I would say the vast majority of the misses occurred when the bird flicked away just as the camera hit focus and before I had time to press the shutter.

Lovely shots of one of my favourite birds. What lens are you using again? Also the bird in the third picture is ringed, but I can't quite make out what it says.

Kind regards,
Ev

 

[Barred Wobbler]

Lovely shots of one of my favourite birds. What lens are you using again? Also the bird in the third picture is ringed, but I can't quite make out what it says.

Kind regards,
Ev

They are with the RF 100-500. It's likely that the bird was ringed locally, a lot of them in the vicinity turn up with rings.

 

[Roy C]

Took this one with the R7 and RF 800mm f11 (so 1280mm fov). nothing to write home about for sure but considering I was 70 yards away (I paced it out later on) it did not turn out to bad! Without this combo I would not have even tried for the shot.

 

[davids]

Another example of a long distance shot, similar to Roy's at 81m, using the RF800mm.

Regards

David

PS the lens is one where the subject or focus distance is written into the EXIF data. I'm not sure which EXIF readers show it but I know flickr does.

 

[Evan Atkinson]

So I got my hands on a mates R7 yesterday for about 5 hours and I'm going to give my honest opinion here. I disliked that the dial on the 7dmkii (the one used to scroll through photos, just right of the viewfinder)was replaced by a pad instead of keeping the dial. The AF was really good, a huge up from the 7dmkii, however, when photographing some snow buntings I found that the camera liked to track the pebbles instead of the bird, but when the birds were able to be large enough in the frame, it locked on near enough straight away. Furthermore, when photographing from a hide, a harrier flew over the reedbed, and the R7 just completely lost it, and focused either on the trees behind the bird or the reedstems. Although when the bird got a bit closer, the camera had no issues in picking it up even though there were other wildfowl in the frame and the reedstems were waving around. From the same hide I was able to get the full experience of the R7's tracking, as multiple ducks would come flying in from the lake and land right in front of the hide. This happened probably a dozen times, and in each of the bursts where I held down the shutter, there was perhaps one out of focus image out of 15+ (I shot in electronic first curtain to avoid rolling shutter, and was surprised that it was quieter than anticipating) but the rest were either tack sharp or just a little soft. I did have a chance of photographing a black redstart and I got a lovely shot, but was also able to test out the ISO performance, as I was at 2500 ISO for a few images. The image below was with the R7 and 100-400 EF f4.5-5.6 lens, and was probably the photo of the day for me. I can try and post more later but it is likely that it will be next week till I get the others uploaded and edited. I shot in CRAW the whole time, but I am only able to upload Jpegs, so keep that in mind.

Edit: I am unable to upload the image at the moment so I'm just going to add a screenshotted version, which will of course degrade the quality heavily, but I will add the other photos in an hour or so (all unedited and not cropped).



Kind regards,
Ev