Review: ZEN Prime HD (1 Viewer)

[Nixterdemus]

"widely bridged snoz"

Mine is prominent, yet more on the SST/Steve Martin-Cyrano de Bergerac, Roxanne (1987) style, relatively thin though not quite that piercing, allowing me to slide twixt wide oculars w/relative ease. As such I've really no interest in the MOLCET approach, adding winged eyecups or extensions if I can avoid such measures. If not for the extensive ER I'd be the proud owner of a lightly used 8x32 SE. I must need consult tout de suite local board authority and SE aficionado, who's identity shall remain anonymous that I'll assign codename ockbray, about the 10/12 power models.

Some of the old porros w/large oculars that I acquired took a little getting used to as the physical feeling is different. I close the IP pinching my nose and then back off just a mite, so there's not a ton of pressure, yet I still feel the presence. After a while I'm used to the sensation and think nothing of the close proximity. I'm not in the least concerned about the wide Prime oculars. It appears that in the bino world the 10X has less ER as a rule than the 8 which suits me as I prefer a 10.

Herein lies my dilemma. The 10x42 Prime & the 10x42 SE are separated by less than a C-note. Apples to oranges, yet my paltry budget can ne'er hardly stand the strain of one much less the luxury of the twain. I want a field flatting bin & would like to give ZR the nod.

If only one came in 12X42.

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Pretty quiet on the Primes? Steve C have you received yours yet? Or are they still at the port in Portland? Must be not alot of posters ordered them? I have been searching to no avail on other forums as well? Still waiting for the contest binocular myself, could make a difference in my lineup we will see?!!! Bryce...

 

[jgraider]

Still waiting here too.

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Still waiting here too.

Bummer, i thought you ordered yours earlier? Maybe that's it, people are still waiting??? Bryce...

 

[Newbflat]

My thoughts on the Prime HD 8x42

I received my Prime HD 8x42's moments before leaving on a week long trip that included 5 days of birding in central eastern Oregon. The car was packed and I was just sitting and waiting for the post to arrive. When it did I opened the box, took a quick look threw to see if everything was ok and got in the car and left.

After doing a quick read of the last week of posters here, here are a few things that come to mind.

They are a bit sensitive to blackouts I guess. I use glasses all the time and the eye relief is almost to much with the cups all the way down. This causes blackouts for me. The IPD adjustment is very stiff and the binos appeared to be very sensitive to this adjustment. If not just right I get blackouts. If I work them back and forth a few times it seems so loosen up temporarily and makes getting the IPD easier. I can rotate the eye cups up a little to give me correct
Eye relief for my glasses and they stay there fairly well but I do meed to adjust them periodically.

One other thing to think about in ' getting everything just right' is getting your eye relief the same. If you watch the ocular when moving the diopter adjustment you will see that it moves up and down relative to the eye cups. So, you can have two quite different eye relief's for each eye depending on your diopter adjustment. Adjusting my eye cups for even eye relief after I finally settled on my correct diopter adjustment helped with the last piece of the puzzle for me. At this point I don't have any blackout issues...... That said. I mean no blackouts with my style of viewing. If I look way over to the side I get blackouts. ... See my comments on viewing style a few paragraphs below.


One side note..... I come from a background of using a pair of binos for the last 5 years with tiny pupils .. Nikon 10x25's so I'm well rehearsed in placing my binos carefully.

Things that would help.... Diopter with a clearer center mark ( seriously!) and IPD index marks. Not sure how to do that but I'd would help a lot in finding the perfect IPD.

My focus wheel has some play in it when changing directions. This is annoying when trying to get the sharpest focus on a bird a long ways away. On that note.. It can get very sharp! But the play makes that last .5% very difficult to achieve. It's there, I can see it... But pass it. For this reason and one I will be returning them. I did notice that on colder nights the focus did get a bit stiffer.

I noticed 'rolling ball' right away and then didn't the rest of the trip. I'm just not that bothered by it. If I go looking for it I can find it but frankly It doesn't bother me. Nothing bothersome with pin cushioning ether but again I'm not that susceptible to it, within reason.

A quick thought here.. I feel the way/ style/ habits you use to look though binos effects your susceptibility to these types of distortions. I tend to only look in the center field of my binos, place my objact there and don't glance around the field. I look for movement without and then spot with the binos. I tend not to slowly scan but quickly move my binos to the edge of the previous viewing field and stop, looking for movement. Since I done scan (much) and always center what I'm looking at, these issues related to distortion don't effect me as much as others..... At least that's my theory.
I find them very sharp across a wide field and with the one caveat mentioned above with the focusing wheel, but center sharpness is very sharp. There is a touch of CA if you really go looking for it but it's a lot less than my old Leica 8x32 BA trinovid's or my Nikon 10x25's ... Really it's a non issue for me, it's not there unless you force it.

I do find there is an odd for lack of better terms...' Dark brightness to them'. If I compare them to my girlfriends 7x36 ED2's the image seems a touch darker yet I see into the shadows I bit better. Maybe it's better contrast or less glare across the field giving a false sense of brightness. Ether way it doesn't bother me as I can see detail in shadows I can't with other binos. Color seems very neutral to my eyes but I'm not testing agents a chart.

As for the mysterious ' ease of viewing' I find them very good but not super. I'm still amazed at how nice, easy and relaxed my girlfriends 7x36ED2's are. I really wish they had a bit better eye relief and fixed the glare issue ...ie: ED3's I might not be typing this if they had. For me there in between the 7x36 ED2 and the 7x42 ED3's.... I never found the 7x42ED3's that easy on my eyes.

Construction of the Primes seems very rugged. It feels like I could fend off a Cougar, brush off the blood and hair and continue birding. The armoring is nice and is soft enough to really protect them on a fall or ding.

The pair I have has a lot of dust on the ..prism?... It's in sharp focus and doesn't change with focusing . There are 5 big specks and a little cloud of tiny specks. They will be going back because of this as well.

Assuming that the pair I receive to replace this pair is free of dust and the focusing has no play, they will be keepers. *There sharp, have nice contrast, a wide sweet spot, are sturdy so I can beat them up.

Bill in Seattle.

ps: Newberry crater, Fort Rock, Summer Lake wetlands and Winter Ridge are lovely places to bird.

 

[Steve C]

ps: Newberry crater, Fort Rock, Summer Lake wetlands and Winter Ridge are lovely places to bird.

Anybody who gets that close needs to make the time to take in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, lots of stuff there that does not occur much anywhere else west of the Mississippi. I spend a fair bit of time in those areas you mention. I'm a high desert country sort.

The Prime problem right now is (as I've posted) or maybe was a "Longshoreman's dispute" with the Port of Portland. I think some of the shipment got off OK and people have gotten those. The dispute has been cleared and the binoculars have spent the last three days in Customs. Once the Longshoremen saw fit to go back to work, the stuff really piled up at the Customs Office. So, no I have not yet got mine.

 

[Raybo]

I was feeling better about my purchase (when they arrive) until your post newb.
Looks like ZR has some QC issues to deal with. :-C

 

[Binoseeker]

I was feeling better about my purchase (when they arrive) until your post newb.
Looks like ZR has some QC issues to deal with. :-C

I have the same feeling too and i am still waiting for my PRIME.

Since they have announced that they are doing the "water test" on each PRIME before shipping, i hope they now also will make simple checks for dust and specks in optical path, no play in focusing, check the diopter setting & eye cups if they might be too loose.


If water has leaked inside, in small amounts, how might that be seen in the bin, could that be like dust on the prism?

Anders

 

[Newbflat]

We had planed to go to Malheur last April during migration but family issues got in the way. I have been there in the past durring the fall. Originaly we were going to poke around the Cascades looking for three toed woodpeckers and stuff but I got a bug in my bonnet... Literally there where so many Mosquitos theywhere crawling under my hat. I have spent a lot of time up there and that was just about the buggiest. So east to Newberry Crater and Fort Rock It was. I have spent time in the Steens, the Owyhee watershed, Hart mountain area but over the years the Summer lake , Fort Rock / Christmas valley area had alluded
me. A quick birding tip here... If your looking for Prairie Falcons, go to Fort Rock! At one point we had 5 in a row chasing each other not more than 50 feet away. Then I noticed that there where 6 birds in the conga line of 5 fancons, an angry hummer was on there tail not 5 feet behind chasing them up and over the cliffs. There was a Prairie falcon in view nearly consistently for hours and we spotted two nests with young as well. 99 species in 5 days of casual birding. To much car time to birding time. If it was spring migration it would have been easy to add 50 more to that.


Bill

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Anybody who gets that close needs to make the time to take in the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, lots of stuff there that does not occur much anywhere else west of the Mississippi. I spend a fair bit of time in those areas you mention. I'm a high desert country sort.

The Prime problem right now is (as I've posted) or maybe was a "Longshoreman's dispute" with the Port of Portland. I think some of the shipment got off OK and people have gotten those. The dispute has been cleared and the binoculars have spent the last three days in Customs. Once the Longshoremen saw fit to go back to work, the stuff really piled up at the Customs Office. So, no I have not yet got mine.

Thanks Steve C, was curious!!! Bryce...

 

[ZEN-RAY]

was away from forum for a few days. Here is the latest update: we should start shipping on all the remaining orders on Monday. Hopefully, we can clear all the backlog by the end of day Tuesday. Thank you very much for your patience.

Charles

 

[Nixterdemus]

Bill in Seattle,
Thanks for taking the time to post your assessment of the 8x42 Prime that you received. Not only do I appreciate your take on pros/cons I enjoyed comparisons in some respects to other bins. I only wish you'd ordered the 10X.

 

[BruceH]

...........,,. You will have facial contact with those large circumference eye cups where people are not used to having contact. It will initially feel very different while you have it up to your eyes. IPD settings and eye placement will be different than what you are used to. ............

I agree that may be true for many, but for people like me that have a wide IP distance, this may not apply. There is plenty of spread between the eye cups so that in my case, they do not touch the side of my nose. The only place the eye cups touches is near the eye brows. The feel is really no different than some of my other binoculars that are somewhat lacking in eye cup length.

There are also people, again like me, that have a shelf full of binoculars. They basically all "feel" different in relation to where they are placed. When switching between many binoculars, placement is determined by the view, not the feel. I think I would need multiple personalities to remember the feel of all my different binoculars.

The biggest downside I can think of with the large eye cups is for people with a narrow IP distance. It may not be possible to get the IP setting close enough without being obstructed by the nose. One advantage (I think already mentioned) for someone like me with a wider IP distance is that larger eye cups will rest outside of the eye when the binocular eye relief and eye cup design requires the user to place the binocular close to eye.

................. Another thing to consider is that if you are used to having the eye cups held tightly to your face, you will have to learn not to hold them quite so close in. That is not a fault...that is a design characteristic. ...........

Anybody used to using the MOLCET approach, to any degree at all, and who centers the large ocular on their eye brow in the same way they are used to, will not be looking through the center of the lens as they are used to. I think this is at least a part of the blackout issue........

Steve, are you recommending not to use the MOLCET approach with the Prime?

If so, then does that mean you need to "free float" them away from your eye if your facial structure requires that additional distance with the current eye cups? ("Free floating" will make it difficult to get a steady hold with a 10x.)

Assuming I understand the MOLCET method, I consider it a work-around to a binoucular the is not a good fit for the user. It requires various compromises that takes away from a relaxed view and is not something that I would want to do over the long term.

..........
Some sort of external auxillary eye cup extension and larger rainguards to fit should be pretty easy to do. I'd bet that if the eye cup extension is a real issue it won't take Charles too long to address the issue.

.............
I would not particularly argue the eye cup fault. It seems easy enough to redesign the eye cup with another click upwards. That would work...probably better as a terminal fix as opposed to an aftermarket fix with the earlier suggestion of the auxillary eye cup.............

Well said! It will be interesting to see what kind of feedback Charles receives over the next few weeks as more customers receive their units. My take on the early trend is that the 10x eye placement is more critical than the 8x.

 

[BruceH]

Bruce,

The original beta design is slightly short on ER in both full collapsed and fully extended mode. ...........Charles

I understand the lack of eye relief in the collapsed mode when wearing eye glasses. However, if there was a problem in the extended mode (assuming the eye relief for non-eye glass viewing is at a reasonable distance), then isn't this an issue with the eye cup length not matching the actual eye cup. Yes, No?

............ Today, I have been trying to recreate the blackout issue by playing with ER without much success. When the eyecups were fully extended, I got a very relaxed view through both barrels. Then I placed the eyecups at the middle position, I still cannot see any blackout with my normal posture of resting upper rim of the eyecups on the my eyebrows. That means the ER is actually quite forgiving and we should not have much excessive ER when eyecups are fully extended.

What I did find is that IPD setting is more critical. If I folded the binoculars to minimum IPD (about 2-3mm smaller than my normal setting), I got blackout immediately. I think the hinge stiffness on your pair is preventing you from freely adjusting the IPD to your optimal setting (again, my apology), which is causing most of the issues. I am hopeful that new replacement will address this issue..........

That's interesting. I concluded just the opposite! As a test, I held the 10X42 Prime HD away from my face, then slowing brought them toward my eyes till the two circles formed one and I had max field of view. I made a mental note of this point then continued to bring the unit closer toward my eyes till the image just started to dim, then made a mental note of this point. The distance between these two points is what I call the ideal placement range. In my case, it took very little movement (forward/back) to exceed the range whereas you found the range quite forgiving. On the other hand, I did not think the IP distance appeared to be that critical, but I did have a difficult time doing a fair evaluation because of the stiff tension with the unit. I will try this again with the replacement unit to see if small changes in the IP adjustment has a significant impact. I also gathered from a couple of posts by Stet that he was thinking along the same lines as me.

...........
Back to the ER question, although I don't believe it's an issue. I would still like to try Jerry and Steve's idea, in addition to the FOR's eyecups. Maybe I can recruit you to test that mod?

Charles

Charles, I look forward to offering any help that I can. I think the Prime HD offers a fantastic view and if there are any kinks, I sure want to see them resolved.

I am still undecided on whether or not the 10x eye cup length is well matched to the eye relief for non eye glass viewing.

I wonder if my original unit may be a sample variation. Stet (above posts) had the same model Sightron as me and it appears we used similar hold positions, yet we have a big variation with the Prime.

I will definitely check to see if the eye placement of my replacement unit is different than the original. I also hope Steve comments on any differences in the non eye glass placement of the beta and his soon to arrive production 10x.

 

[Steve C]

OK Bruce, some good points. Lets take them one at a time.

I also have a wide IPD, some 68mm. It is an average distance because the IPD setting on all of my glass is different, ranging from 68-70mm.

I also have a shlef full of binoculars. As I said above the IPD in usage is not the same on all of them. Certainly feel has a lot to do with that. Feel also can have a lot to do with how you (or I, or anybody else) places the binocular to their eye. There is a concept dealing with riflescopes called the "Eye-Box". That is actually a cylinder corresponding to the exit pupil in diameter and a length determined by the eye relief. Satisfactore mounting requires youe eye pupil to be in that bounds of that box. So there is the same cylindrical projection in binoculars. If your pupil is not properly placed within that box, the view stinks. The IPD adjustment is completed by the view we see, as you point out. However if the pupil cant be comfortably placed there, there will be no good view to be had, and what I am saying is that in these cases this is where outsized oculars may play with the devil in the view.

I am neither advocating or discouraging the MOLCET approach. I am saying that whatever the technique you are used to using is...it may need some modification. The 10x beta Prime with eye cups extended is perfect for me, no MOLCET needed. But my eyes are only mine and not somebody else's. Most of the eye placement/blackout issue are I think related to how people are used to holding binoculars and what if any modification may be needed with the Prime. I agree completely that the less fiddling one has to do with the hold of a binocular, MOLCET, or whatever else is not a good thing. But not necessarily a bad thing either. A piece of bicycle innertube and an 0-ring to extend the eye cup is pretty simple and cheap. I do think a little more range in the extension of the Prime eye cup might be a good thing.

I am just trying to point out that binoculars with large eye cups, such as the Swift Audubon 820 porro, the Kruger Caldera, and now the Prime may take a bit of adjustment. The adjustment may be less if you wear glasses and have the binocular placement defined by youe spectacle lenses. I am saying that if the balalnce of the things about the Prime appeal to you, give yourself a break and just use it a little. It is a solid instrument with superb optics. WHat I don't like hearing is the presence of the interior specs.

 

[BruceH]

Steve -- If I have a shelf full of binoculars, I figured you must have at least a cabinet full of binoculars!

I was applying a narrow meaning to the term "feeling", limited to where the binocular actually touched the face. Based on your use of the rifescope example where the scope never touches the face, it appears you are using the term in a much broader sense than what I was originally thinking.

I am glad you commented that the the extended eye cup view of the beta 10X unit was perfect for you. I assumed that was the case. I gather from some of the other posts by Charles that the eye relief of the production units have been extended. If that is correct and the eye cups remained the same length, then I would expect the eye placement will change for you when you receive the production unit. I hope you will comment in your next review how eye placement and eye cups compare between the beta and production units.

Several people have posted concerns about dirt found on the inside surfaces. I agree that it is a unwanted inconvenience, but the possibility would not stop me from ordering a Prime HD. Now that Charles is aware of the issue, in theory, no more units with that problem should make it out the door. If a unit arrives with dirt, that can be resolved, although it will be a pain in the rear to the customer. This is an assembly issue, not a design issue. A change in the assembly process and some educational time with the QC inspectors should take care of it. A design issue would be harder to address.

 

[Newbflat]

Something i notice more in these binoculars (8x PRIME) than any other i have looked threw is how much IPD and ER placement effect brightness. I seem to get a little brightness boost if i bring up the eye cups too where i am on the verge of losing the whole image (with glasses) . I have also started to adjust the IPD by brightness rather than blackout tendency. This seems to work well other than being very frustrating because of the stiffness of the adjustment. Its stiff enough that i can't hand them to my girlfriend as she can't adjust them. Because there is no IPD index marks we cant figure out what IPD works for her what works for her and then have me adjust it before handing it to her.
I can loosen it up a touch temporarily by working the hinge back and forth. Then when she gives them back i have to go threw the process of finding my IPD sweet spot again one jerky adjustment at a time.... its a pain. If its going to be this stiff it needs some sort of index marks.... not sure where you would go though.

 

[stereotruckdriver]

Something i notice more in these binoculars (8x PRIME) than any other i have looked threw is how much IPD and ER placement effect brightness. I seem to get a little brightness boost if i bring up the eye cups too where i am on the verge of losing the whole image (with glasses) . I have also started to adjust the IPD by brightness rather than blackout tendency. This seems to work well other than being very frustrating because of the stiffness of the adjustment. Its stiff enough that i can't hand them to my girlfriend as she can't adjust them. Because there is no IPD index marks we cant figure out what IPD works for her what works for her and then have me adjust it before handing it to her.
I can loosen it up a touch temporarily by working the hinge back and forth. Then when she gives them back i have to go threw the process of finding my IPD sweet spot again one jerky adjustment at a time.... its a pain. If its going to be this stiff it needs some sort of index marks.... not sure where you would go though.

Generaly roofs don't have any marks for determing ipd placement??? Can't think of any off the top of my head that do??? Bryce...

 

[Steve C]

Something i notice more in these binoculars (8x PRIME) than any other i have looked threw is how much IPD and ER placement effect brightness. I seem to get a little brightness boost if i bring up the eye cups too where i am on the verge of losing the whole image (with glasses) . I have also started to adjust the IPD by brightness rather than blackout tendency. This seems to work well other than being very frustrating because of the stiffness of the adjustment. Its stiff enough that i can't hand them to my girlfriend as she can't adjust them. Because there is no IPD index marks we cant figure out what IPD works for her what works for her and then have me adjust it before handing it to her.
I can loosen it up a touch temporarily by working the hinge back and forth. Then when she gives them back i have to go threw the process of finding my IPD sweet spot again one jerky adjustment at a time.... its a pain. If its going to be this stiff it needs some sort of index marks.... not sure where you would go though.

Personally I think this is an excellent post to illustrate the point that it is probably not a good idea to share a binocular back and forth. Get each user their own. It is a flaming pain in the backside to have to redo diopter settings, IPD...etc even if the hinge an other settings are pretty loose.

If the IPD is a bugger for you to set...why in the world would you not want a stiffer hinge? They tend to stay put and reduce fiddling. One of the first thing I do is look at the hinge and see if the tension can be tightened. I see no easy way to adjust tension on the Prime.

There is also a pretty simple way to give yourself a reference point for diopter setting and IPD setting. Just use a few drops of some of your girlfriends nail polish. Dab a dot in the center of the diopter range. Dab dots for IPD settings for each of you, with a reference dot to adjust them to. That or a bit of model airplane paint. The stuff lasts for a long time. EDIT: Got to thinking about this and went and looked at the Prime. The diopter thing would work, I have no idea where I'd put IPD marks on the Prime...or any other roof...unless you went to the objective end of the hinge.

I think you might get a better evaluation of the Prime HD you have to set it for your face and just use it. That eliminates the settings change. The diopter should never need changing. In the several years I have had my ZEN ED 2 7x36 I've NEVER touched the diopter setting since initial adjustment. Let you GF have her 7x36, she won't miss anything with it anyway. Or go get you one of those too .

 

[Newbflat]

Personally I think this is an excellent post to illustrate the point that it is probably not a good idea to share a binocular back and forth. Get each user their own. It is a flaming pain in the backside to have to redo diopter settings, IPD...etc even if the hinge an other settings are pretty loose.

If the IPD is a bugger for you to set...why in the world would you not want a stiffer hinge? They tend to stay put and reduce fiddling. One of the first thing I do is look at the hinge and see if the tension can be tightened. I see no easy way to adjust tension on the Prime.

There is also a pretty simple way to give yourself a reference point for diopter setting and IPD setting. Just use a few drops of some of your girlfriends nail polish. Dab a dot in the center of the diopter range. Dab dots for IPD settings for each of you, with a reference dot to adjust them to. That or a bit of model airplane paint. The stuff lasts for a long time. EDIT: Got to thinking about this and went and looked at the Prime. The diopter thing would work, I have no idea where I'd put IPD marks on the Prime...or any other roof...unless you went to the objective end of the hinge.

I think you might get a better evaluation of the Prime HD you have to set it for your face and just use it. That eliminates the settings change. The diopter should never need changing. In the several years I have had my ZEN ED 2 7x36 I've NEVER touched the diopter setting since initial adjustment. Let you GF have her 7x36, she won't miss anything with it anyway. Or go get you one of those too .

Well i don't make a habit of handing my binos to my GF but she wanted to look threw them a few times to see the difference between these and hers. She also has a tendency to leave hers in the car. Not any more though when i told her she had to adjust them herself. Now she remembers to bring hers. Still, binoculars do get handed around, ether to other birders to check out or too people who don't have any. I have never had a pair of binoculars that were so hard to adjust that it gives me pause before letting someone else look threw them.... i don't find this is an admirable trait.

I don't move my diopter around but other people do, so there is the odd occasion that i do need to reset it. Unfortunately 'never' letting anyone else look threw my binoculars because there a pain to adjust is not an option or desired, i don't think its a good idea to design a binocular where that's the necessary outcome of a tight hinge. These aren't quite there, but close. I'm hoping over time they loosen up. I don't find the 'tighter is better' line of thought is the answer. I have never had a pair of binoculars that had an issue with unwarranted changes in IPD, and all where much easer to adjust.

As for the Diopter indexing marks being vague, i had planed doing something like you mentioned when i receive a replacement pair for the dust and focus issues. Paint, nail polish or a sharpi should work fine. And for the IDP i will put a mark on the hinge when i settle on the perfect IPD. I have always been a beveler that all binos should all have IDP index marks on them. Such a simple thing would make a pain in the ass readjustment a thing of the past. Some simple marks on the exposed surface of the hinge seems like a no brainier for all roof prisms to have.

If i sound like i don't like them thats not the case. I think the view is lovely. But they are not without issues/ quirks.

Bill