Roach or Rudd? (1 Viewer)

[NickPatel92]

Please can anyone confirm this -
a Roach or a Rudd?

 

[On-Firecrest]

roach i reckon...

 

[rozinante]

Please can anyone confirm this -
a Roach or a Rudd?

In my inexpert opinion I would say Rudd due to the dorsal fin behind the front of the pelvic fins, depth of body and colour of eye.

Looks a bit knocked about!

edit:-
Just realised, I got the eye colour wrong it's yellow = roach I now think. Still feel the dorsal is far enough back for rudd though. Mouth should help but doesn't in these pics. Then there are hybrids to consider!

 

[Perry Grin]

Dorsal fin good for Rudd as said by rozinate, but eye colour wrong. Silvery blue sheen suggests roach. Then again there is a hint or protuding bottom lip - an indicator of rudd. Also the fist looks dead - could explain funny eye colour.

I reckon, hybrid or dead rudd!

 

[NickPatel92]

The fish was dead.

 

[Keith Reeder]

It's a rudd.

Eye colour here is actually OK (roach have orangey-red eyes), but the eye looks odd here because the pupil has contracted - usually the black area is bigger.

This has the set-back dorsal fin, protruding bottom lip and pronounced pelvic keel that are ID clinchers for me.

 

[NickPatel92]

Thanks for all the help.

 

[michaelmacey]

Its a Roach. Not in the best of condition mind you. Rudd are surface feeders and to help with this they have a bottom lip which extends way past the top lip. A Roach has red fins too, and there isnt any gold on the flanks which is another Rudd quality. Has to be a Roach, or of course a hybrid of the 2, but lets not go there now. Mick

 

[rozinante]

That settles that then.

 

[Keith Reeder]

Its a Roach.

No it's not!



The ID clincher for rudd over roach is the relative positions of the front edges of the dorsal and ventral fins.

In roach the front edges are aligned, but in rudd the dorsal fin is well behind the front of the ventral fin.

I've added a line to the picture to make this feature obvious.

It's a rudd.

 

[rozinante]

No it's not!




I've added a line to the picture to make this feature obvious.

It's a rudd.

Added a line?

I thought you had disected it.

 

[Keith Reeder]

I could - then I could show you the difference between roach and rudd pharyngeal teeth - the definitive post mortem identification method.

 

[michaelmacey]

I grant you the Dorsal fin is further back than you'd expect on a Roach. But the Dorsal on a Roach is a little behind the pectoral fins. A couple of frozen Roach courtasy of Ammo baits in my freezer(4 the Pike fishing) does show the Dorsal to be behind the pectorals a little way.

Its the Mouth, eye colour and silver flanks which dont make me think its a 'True' Rudd. I wouldnt mind betting it could be a Hybrid. It has charactaristics of both, but iv never seen a Silver Rudd before. Iv got an old photo of a Rudd Bream hybrid caught 15 years ago, and some qualities from each fish are apparent.

So although the Dorsal is clearly further back, im still in favour of Roach or Hybrid. I reckon we should start the Autopsy Mick

 

[rozinante]

Could the lack of colour be due to it's condition?

 

[michaelmacey]

Well i thought that, but iv frozen Rudd and Roach for years and they keep a fairly good colour to em. if the scales are Golden they would only become a faded Golden i think, not silver, Mick

 

[NickPatel92]

Thanks for all the replies - this is great!

 

[rozinante]

I don't think it will ever be conclusive Nick.
Unless you have it in a freezer and we organise the first ever BF postmortem meet.

We will have a better idea of what to look out for in furure though.

 

[Keith Reeder]

Well i thought that, but iv frozen Rudd and Roach for years and they keep a fairly good colour to em. if the scales are Golden they would only become a faded Golden i think, not silver, Mick

That's because they've been frozen fresh, Mick - a dead rudd on the bank will lose its colour pretty quickly. I've seen dead perch so faded that you couldn't see the stripes.

The distance between the dorsal and pelvic fins on this fish is way too big for roach, and it also has (to my eyes) a pelvic keel - good for rudd too.

If it is a hybrid, it's a very "ruddy" one!

 

[michaelmacey]

Ruddy hell, you might be right, lol.

The more i look at it, the less sure i am. Iv looked in another couple of Books, and the Dorsal position is certainly way back there for a Roach. I showed the Thread to me m8, and he's still scratching his head. Judging by the sheen he ought to stop now.

Nick: I think we'd better go with Keiths Decision, as the Dorsal is the main highlight. The other signs iv decribed could well be purely due to the time dead. One things for sure, its always a shame to see em belly up. Mick

 

[rozinante]

Ruddy hybrids eh?

Informative thread though and 20 posts for a fish thread can't be bad!

It was <----------------------------THIS-------------------------> big.

Honest.