RSPB stunned by Defra plan to 'imprison' buzzards (RSPB) (1 Viewer)

[Nightranger]

The catch? It would involve a controlled experiment where you removed by active nest destruction and trapping and translocation of adults in the experimental area. Let's say 50 of each species over a few years. Option 2 would be shooting/trapping/killing of adults (same number). A moral, ethical and ideological minefield, but those 50 Buzzards could put an end to all prospect of lethal controls and so protect many more, for the forseeable future.

If you could look into a crystal ball and know that the answer you got would be the one you needed/wanted (i.e. they're 'innocent' of the charges), would you accept this price for that evidence? Either option?

Alf, I don't necessarily disagree with your ideas but I would have thought that this would be at least Phase 2 and probably later in any research. Far better to find out if the 25-30% loss rate is correct first before taking any direct action. If it is wrong in the first place then there is no way forward and no justification for the removal experiment wouldn't you agree?

If it was proven, there would be no argument but would it not be a no-brainer that removal of any buzzards would reduce losses according to your theories? My fear is that removal of buzzards could be made to look as though it increased yields possibly even dishonestly (sorry but we have to address this possibility) or it would simply be claimed that any increase (no matter how small) in yield would prove the original theories and be sufficient justification for widening the removal programme? No, to me the first step should be verification of the claims that have been made to support the calls to take this action and then make decisions on what happens next.

 

[Robin Edwards]

And the GSA's take on the subject.

http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/blogs/533188/DEFRA_buzzard_stance.html

They state that financial losses to Pheasant from Buzzards are considerable in Scotland although don't reference any peer reviewed research to evidence.

Apparently Common Buzzards in Scotland are uniquely fearless and like Seagulls waiting to steal your chips.

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

Yesterday in The Sunday Times, Charles Clover lambasted both the RSPB and the Countryside Alliance (and their public supporters in the press) for their attitude over this.

Here it is: http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/comment/columns/charlesclover/article1057185.ece

 

[Robin Edwards]

So my Tory MP has now formally responded - has anyone else had a reply?

In the light of the public concerns expressed recently, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra) has decided to look at developing new research proposals on buzzards.

The success of conservation measures over the last two decades has seen large increases in the numbers of buzzards and other birds of prey. It is important that the Government takes the right steps to protect buzzard populations and ensure that they continue to thrive. As such, it is vital that Defra make these decisions on the basis of the best scientific evidence available and improve our understanding of the whole relationship between raptors, game birds and other livestock.

Defra will collaborate with all the organisations that have an interest in this issue before bringing forward new proposals. Please be assured that I will continue to monitor the situation on your behalf.

Needless to say that I will respond further.

 

[Jane Turner]

Yes - verbatim.

 

[Robin Edwards]

Thanks Jane - thought as much

Makes me smile how they seem to view that Conservation is the difference rather than decades of reduced persecution and haven't grapsed that wildlife recovers without intervention if such barriers are removed.

And who is taking the credit for any Conservation measures anyway - not Defra I hope

 

[Bob Philpott]

Same words from mine as well

 

[T&E]

Our reply from Lincoln MP (Karl McCartney) was identical as well.

Regards,
Terry & Eileen.

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

Out of interest without wishing to make this party political, could each of you that has had the same reply edit your previous response and add the political party of your own MP. I would be interested in seeing whether this appears to be a party-dictated response or something more widespread.

 

[Nightranger]

I didn't email but I did send PMs out on Facebook to Richard Benyon and David Nuttall but I have not had a reply from either.

 

[Jane Turner]

Mine was a Tory

 

[joannec]

I got the same reply from my Tory MP..........and there I was thinking that with the sentence:

Please be assured that I will continue to monitor the situation on your behalf.

that he'd written a personal reply.

 

[Trystan]

I got the same reply from my Tory MP..........and there I was thinking that with the sentence:

Please be assured that I will continue to monitor the situation on your behalf.

that he'd written a personal reply.

I don't think they have time to personally respond, or even read their constituents mail. After all they do have a second job to hold down because their MPs wage and expenses is not enough to keep them from the breadline you know.

 

[Robin Edwards]

I don't think they have time to personally respond, or even read their constituents mail. After all they do have a second job to hold down because their MPs wage and expenses is not enough to keep them from the breadline you know.

You don't think that it's because they're too busy bagging a few pheasant with their chums?

 

[Nightranger]

Just to let everyone know and to some extents, bump this thread, several local birding websites are reporting scripted responses too. I am not sure if anyone has had a response from a Lib-Dem or Labour MP yet but most seem to come from Conservative MPs and/or channelled through or by a DEFRA representative. It would be unwise to think this issue has gone away but one, Richard Benyon does not want to be caught promoting the use of governmental privileges to promote private business interests a la Jeremy Hunt at the moment. Keep watching the skies people!

 

[Jack Dawe]

When you complain to an MP, that MP passes your letter to the Secretary of State for whichever department is responsible, who then passes it back to his department's officials to draft a reply for the MP to send to his constituent. So the fact that all the replies are identical is not surprising, because they will just be a stock reply drafted by Defra. I'd be surprised if replies from Lib-Dem and Labour MPs were any different, though of course MPs are free to amend or discard the drafted reply if they wish.

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

When you complain to an MP, that MP passes your letter to the Secretary of State for whichever department is responsible, who then passes it back to his department's officials to draft a reply for the MP to send to his constituent. So the fact that all the replies are identical is not surprising, because they will just be a stock reply drafted by Defra. I'd be surprised if replies from Lib-Dem and Labour MPs were any different, though of course MPs are free to amend or discard the drafted reply if they wish.

The MP cannot be expected to know the full details of every topic in their portfolio, that is why they have underlings and experts below them to do the work while the MP steers the Department. So the letter would have been drafted by the person whith most knowledge and direct responsbility, which is not the MP but probably someone at Defra. This is the same in any workplace.

So it is perfectly reasonable, and appropriate, for the Defra person to draft the letter, which is then approved by the MP and then signed off, and then sent to those who have written in. Bearing in mind that the letters sent in would have basically been the same ("why are you picking on Buzzards? Stop it, please"), then would people really expect, and prefer, a civil servant to sit down for 5 days solid and write out essentially the same thing to 3,000 different people, making sure they used a slight variation in language each time?

If people wrote a letter and got a reply, then they have nothing to complain about. If someone esle got the exact same reply, then that is because the question they asked or the topic they raised was essentially identical. So what? I'd say it was an efficient use of our money to use up the time of the office printer rather than a busy civil servant writing a unique letter.

If they used a computer program that intelligently varied the language a little in each reply, would they feel any better?

 

[Nightranger]

If people wrote a letter and got a reply, then they have nothing to complain about. If someone esle got the exact same reply, then that is because the question they asked or the topic they raised was essentially identical. So what? I'd say it was an efficient use of our money to use up the time of the office printer rather than a busy civil servant writing a unique letter.

If they used a computer program that intelligently varied the language a little in each reply, would they feel any better?

I agree...however, I am sure you will agree that it is important to know whether Lib-Dem and Labour MPs are responding in the same way as Conservative MPs given the gist of things. All this came out of a Conservative MP asking for privileges from a governmental department in a coalition government and for a private business so political leanings aside, you have to agree that it is important for all of us to know whether Lib-Dems and Labour representatives agree with this entire issue.

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

What will be more telling is whether DEFRA provide the details requested via at least two requests under the Freedom of Information Act that if responded to openly will provide information on the proposed sites/estates involved and details of meetings/emails/communications that prompted the propoals in the first place.

 

[Jane Turner]

and if it really was Benyon's own gamekeeper!