Ruddy Duck cull continuing (13 Viewers)

[John Cantelo]

Hence the reason why I am fairly neutral on this issue - I have not seen sufficient evidence to actively support it, but at the same time have enough trust in these bodies to also not actively oppose it. That said, I would not myself reveal locations of Ruddy Ducks.

Actions, they say, speak louder than words so by not revealing locations you are effectively opposing, and certainly undermining, the cull. To my mind, as noted previously, the link I provided includes more than enough circumstantial to support the cull,

 

[Jos Stratford]

Actions, they say, speak louder than words so by not revealing locations you are effectively opposing, and certainly undermining, the cull.

If that's how you interpret it, so be it

 

[Jan-Paul Charteris]

Actions, they say, speak louder than words so by not revealing locations you are effectively opposing, and certainly undermining, the cull. To my mind, as noted previously, the link I provided includes more than enough circumstantial to support the cull,

We're talking about whilst out doing what we love, watching birds, recording behaviour etc, seeing a bird and thinking "if I report that, it may be targetted to be shot". Surely you must at least understand the mentality we have whether you support it or not. Jos said that he hadn't seen enough evidence to support the cull. That's a good enough reasonto not want to support it, even if not actively oppose it (the latter we're talking petitions/protest etc)

 

[Jos Stratford]

Although lacking the sort of detailed information Jos has called for the link below presents a convincing, if circumstantial, case.

Sorry John, this simply says hybrids have occurred, and that hybrids are fertile, nothing unexpected in that. The degree to which it occurs is not even hinted at - as said, numerous species have been recorded interbreeding without an extinction in one.

I could be convinced to support the cull, just still have seen nothing that does it.

Just to repeat, for me peronally to support it, I'd want to see answers to questions such as:

1. How many actual cases of interbreeding have there been?
2. Has it also documented how many times Ruddy Ducks have occurred alongside WHD without interbreeding?

Also
3. Have any (perhaps inverse) relationship been noted between WHD density and cases of interbreeding where Ruddy Duck has occurred?
4. Where, in relation to the range of WHD, have cases of interbreeding occurred (related to question 3)

 

[dantheman]

Yes, lots of factors at play. Nothing is ever black and white. More ruddy coloured in this case ...

 

[Richard Klim]

There are obviously a number of birders, otherwise supportive of wildlife conservation, who remain unconvinced of the necessity of the Ruddy Duck eradication programme. I think it's clear that RSPB etc could have made better efforts to actively promote it, as perhaps the most important bird conservation project in the UK in the last decade. Instead, it seems that it was decided to maintain a relatively low publicity profile, conscious that the programme would almost certainly be unpopular with the general public (cf hedgehog culling).

Perhaps the strategy worked, given the success of the programme - I was certainly sceptical that numbers could be reduced so rapidly. But it's a great pity that it had to be conducted without the support of the entire birding community.

 

[Swindon Addick]

Sorry John, this simply says hybrids have occurred, and that hybrids are fertile, nothing unexpected in that. The degree to which it occurs is not even hinted at - as said, numerous species have been recorded interbreeding without an extinction in one.

page 42 - over the previous 10 years, ie 1996 to 2006, Spain had culled 152 ruddies and 65 hybrids.

To be fair to those objecting to the cull, the Defra website does seem reluctant to link to real science and quotes a single combined figure for ruddies and hybrids in Spain, which doesn't tell you how many hybrids there actually were. It's been an entertaining but slightly frustrating evening trying to track down the original sources. With so many major conservation bodies supporting the cull, that's surprising and rather disappointing.

The best site I could find was the Birdlife International factsheet on the white-headed duck. Their reference for ruddies outcompeting white-headed is from this book, but I don't have a copy to see the detail.

I had more luck with the genetics - the key reference is available as a PDF here. In amongst some good stuff about the genetics of the issue, there's a figure of 28 hybrids from 1993-2003. But that's not actually a figure for the total number of hybrids, just the number they managed to get dna from which did turn out to be either first or second-generation hybrids.

That's the best I can do in the space of a couple of hours. Thanks for asking the question - I've learned a lot of stuff that I'd never have got round to reading otherwise.

 

[Jos Stratford]

To be fair to those objecting to the cull, the Defra website does seem reluctant to link to real science and quotes a single combined figure for ruddies and hybrids in Spain, which doesn't tell you how many hybrids there actually were. It's been an entertaining but slightly frustrating evening trying to track down the original sources. With so many major conservation bodies supporting the cull, that's surprising and rather disappointing.

Thanks for the attempts, pretty much the same as I have been able to find. As you and Richard say, you'd have thought the organisations involved would have wanted to spell out the case as clearly and convincingly as possible to convince as many many doubters as possible.

Without expansion, the base figure of 65 hybrids culled over 10 years really says very little - is that just a tip of the iceberg with interbreeding really occurring everytime the two come into contact or are those 65 near the true totality and possibly even the offspring of just one or two pairs interbreeding over the ten years?

 

[david kelly]

I think that the cull is regretful and neccessary. There have been cases in other parts of the world where native spcies of wildfowl have been genetically swamped by an invasive non native (usually Mallard or its domestic descendants) that I think it was sensible to employ the precautionary principle to conserve the White-headed Duck.

I have listened to the pros and the antis over the last 10 years or so and while I was Lothian Recorder we never really had much of a Ruddy Duck population so I never had the issue of deciding whether to reveal locations or not. Neighbouring recording areas did have the dilemma. Ruddy records have declined away to one or two annually in the Lothians, and I miss seeing them but I have not yet seen White-headed Duck and I am glad that for once some decisive action has been taken to conserve a species.

David

 

[Richard Klim]

I had more luck with the genetics - the key reference is available as a PDF here.

Although not directly answering all of Jos's questions, Muñoz-Fuentes et al 2007 gives a good account of the threat posed by hybridisation.

 

[Tarsiger]

Lots of info in this link and its sub-sections:-

//secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/nonnativespecies/index.cfm?pageid=244

But I guess most concerned parties have found and read all of this.
Certainly an indication of why it's cost so much.

Russ

 

[arniemonkey]

ive changed my mind on the cull i think we shuld blast the little ***** out of the water as fast as possible ,also i had to laugh when i heard they came and cleared out at local area then found out they left some ducklings so they came back and shot those 2 day old vermin..ever seen a young duck? so offensive ,makes you wanna kill it! i used to like birds but now i like killing them, john cantelo etc now my best friends no doubt my ignorance on the subject will be staggering childish ill informed im sure but answer this could you shoot some 2 day old duckings ?....i couldnt kill a 2 day old hitler so ill be dammned if im doing it to an innocent duckling.

 

[Richard Klim]

ive changed my mind on the cull i think we shuld blast the little ***** out of the water as fast as possible...

At last, a convert!

 

[John Cantelo]

Arnie, can I follow others by earnestly asking you to consider running your posts through spelling/grammar checking software? This isn’t a matter of having a go at you as I often use such software myself. The unfortunate fact is that the impact of what you write is somewhat undermined and your meaning obscured by your lack of grammar, punctuation, etc.

There is a school of thought that suggests that, as soon as fascism, the Nazis or Hitler are invoked in an argument, it’s time to move on and leave well enough alone. Unwisely, perhaps, I will press on. I doubt that any birders who support the cull are doing so with anything other than reluctance and that none of us ‘like killing’ (as you post seems to imply generally and, in my case, personally). At risk of being accused of hypocrisy, I admit that I couldn’t kill an ‘innocent duckling’ or, for that matter, adults, but then there are many, many things in this world that I couldn’t do which, however regrettable, need doing. It should not be hard to imagine a lengthy list yourself.

The cull is unpleasant, distasteful to a degree and very regrettable. Although I recognise the strength of Jos’s caveats (which, incidentally, have a much greater impact on me than any amount of facetious observations), I remain of the opinion that the cull is a necessary precaution to preserve the WHD. It would have been preferable if the studies Jos would like to see were done (and if they have been done widely published). However. I suspect obtaining such detailed information would not be easy or quick, that any delay might have fatally compromised the cull and may have made it “politically” impossible to proceed at all,

 

[arniemonkey]

id say my punctuation ,grammar etc is irrelevant really ..you can read and know exactly what i say wether i miss a commar or not...glad to hear you wouldnt do it yourself so my opinion of you rises greatly.id be vegetarian if i had to kill chickens myself..you saying "regretable,distasteful,unpleasant" is all i needed to hear...you sounded a bit too keen to kill em earlier on thats all...friends now?????

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

id say my punctuation ,grammar etc is irrelevant really ..you can read and know exactly what i say wether i miss a commar or not...glad to hear you wouldnt do it yourself so my opinion of you rises greatly.id be vegetarian if i had to kill chickens myself..you saying "regretable,distasteful,unpleasant" is all i needed to hear...you sounded a bit too keen to kill em earlier on thats all...friends now?????

You're wrong. The reason we have grammar, punctuation and proper spelling at all is so that what we write can be clearly understood by others. If you're happy for your words to be ambiguous or confusing, then don't worry. But if you want people to know what you are saying, and get your point across, then it's a good idea to use the rules of communication that everyone else uses, and not rely on us being able to second guess your own rules.

You wouldn't expect people to understand you in the street if you spoke like you type, so it's mark of respect to your readers to make the effort so that they can understand what you're saying. It's pure reverse snobbery to play the victim and suggest people are being harsh by pointing out that what you are typing isn't English. I'm a working class lad from a tough estate (one of the toughest), but I consider it polite to try and make myself understood clearly by everyone by writing in a language, spelling and punctuation that others can recognise.

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

There is a school of thought that suggests that, as soon as fascism, the Nazis or Hitler are invoked in an argument, it’s time to move on and leave well enough alone.

That's Godwin's Law, which states that sooner or later, someone in an internet discussion will use Hitler or the nazis as an analogy.

It is generally understood to imply that the poster making such a comparison has lost the debate.

 

[dantheman]

That's Godwin's Law, which states that sooner or later, someone in an internet discussion will use Hitler or the nazis as an analogy.

A quick search indicates that one of those 3 words (2 above and fascism) has ocurred in 172 threads here on bf ... which possibly indicates that the quality of posting/ posters on here is generally above the average for internet 'discussions' ...

 

[AlfArbuthnot]

A quick search indicates that one of those 3 words (2 above and fascism) has ocurred in 172 threads here on bf ... which possibly indicates that the quality of posting/ posters on here is generally above the average for internet 'discussions' ...

To be fair, there aren't many gull i.d. nazis around, so not much opportunity.

It's also much less common in the under 30s. For anyone aged 35 and over, they would have grown up with WW2 films on TV and played with Airfix plastic soldiers. They had grandparents who were first-hand witnesses and participants. But to anyone under 30, WW2 is about as immediate as the Boer war - they've never met a veteran and the war they grew up with on TV/film was all Vietnam and Desert Storm.

 

[arniemonkey]

gr8 2 c u luvin my posts alf!lol rotfl.... now thats annoying.but missing a commer is no big deal so i think everyone knows exactly what i`m saying, i just dont need to sound superior by critizising a few punctuation errors .so i suggest staying on topic.