The trouble with to many Deer means.....Deer Cull!!!!! (1 Viewer)

[fugl]

II just don't believe that there is some sort of secret agenda by state F&G in this country to covertly introduce cougars. I have heard this "speculation" from many midwestern and eastern states, and it makes no sense to me.

Absolutely--pure urban myth. The idea that state F&W agencies have slush funds for covert cougar re-introductions is ludicrous.

 

[Isurus]

Isurus,
Are you a vegetarian, or fish only? If so, maybe he didn't smell the threat?

Nah - I'll eat pretty much anything that can be sustainably raised/harvested.

 

[Himalaya]

Looking at the case for Scotland, i think:-


1. If Wolves are not going to be reintroduced then at least lynx should be. I am not sure how Lynx will affect the numbers of Deer - are they capable of taking adult Roe Deer? How many Lynx and Wolves will be needed to lower the populations naturally?

2. Sika Deer in the UK should be neutered and the population allowed to die off. Then Red Deer from Scotland be introduced back into some of its former range. Do Red Deer exist in paces such as Yorkshire Dales NP, Forest of Bowland, Peak District NP, Sherwood Forest, Cannock Chase, Wales and other countryside areas? Relocation is better than culling unnecesarily.

3. Cheap Trophy Hunting which would discourage poachers at home and abroad, if visiting.

 

[borealowl47]

Deer and other ungulates

Classic example is Yellowstone np.No predators,to many ungulates,
destroying to much habitat for other species.Introduce predators
Wolf ,ecological balance is restored ,more birds,more wolfs,
less ungulates!
National Geographic had a great film on reintroducing Wolfs to
Yellowstone.What I found fascinating was the regrowth of the
riparian zone around the rivers.Which meant more habitat for
birds!etc etc.

Darrell

 

[Farnboro John]

Looking at the case for Scotland, i think:-


1. If Wolves are not going to be reintroduced then at least lynx should be. I am not sure how Lynx will affect the numbers of Deer - are they capable of taking adult Roe Deer? How many Lynx and Wolves will be needed to lower the populations naturally?

2. Sika Deer in the UK should be neutered and the population allowed to die off. Then Red Deer from Scotland be introduced back into some of its former range. Do Red Deer exist in paces such as Yorkshire Dales NP, Forest of Bowland, Peak District NP, Sherwood Forest, Cannock Chase, Wales and other countryside areas? Relocation is better than culling unnecesarily.

3. Cheap Trophy Hunting which would discourage poachers at home and abroad, if visiting.

1. I agree Lynx should be reintroduced. It doesn't matter whether Lynx can take adult Roe Deer, they will take young and exert pressure on the population at that point instead.

2. Easy to say, the Sikas may not by so easy to catch! If you really want them gone shooting is the answer, humans have an excellent record of exterminating species with guns. Re catching, ditto Red Deer of course. In any case, East Anglian lowland Red Deer would probably do better in some of the areas you mention. There are already Red Deer in Wales. Don't know about Bowland but they are at Leighton Moss so I suspect they may well be in the area at low density.

3. Trophy hunting targets prime breeding males and does not therefore constitute an appropriate culling mechanism. In addition how are you going to force cheapness on sporting estates (i.e. where all the deer presently are)? Additionally, if you make it cheap are you going to get competent hunters or a rash of poorly shot suffering wounded beasts?

Back to the drawing board I think.

John

 

[razorsharp]

Lynx can kill other species too. They are capable of killing Grouse I'm sure and look at the trouble foxes go through on managed moors. If you introduce Lynx they will eventually be killed or culled as well, it's one or the other.

 

[lulie]

It is funny to read all these ideas about how to control deer numbers ect.
I live on a small game reserve, 5000 hectares, in South Africa. Every year we do game counts and veld analysis to asess what animals we need to take off and in what numbers.
There is a lot of science behind it and its a fairly complicated process but all goes into maintaining a healthy balance between the animals and the habitat.

In our situation we take off +/- 200 impala a year, some are sold to other farms, alot go to the butchers. Larger buck such as kudu/ waterbuck/ eland are mostly sold to restock other farms or to hunting farms. Most are captured in family groups and sold on like that.

This relooking at stocking numbers never stops if you want a healthy environment.
Maybe the uk authorities should look into some of these long standing tried and tested methods of game management. It would be alot more beneficial than trying to introduce predetors to the scenario. We have plenty of leopard here and the odd lion or two coming through and these factors are accounted for in the game counts so I know adding a few lynx to the picture will really make very little difference.

Lulie

 

[Farnboro John]

It is funny to read all these ideas about how to control deer numbers ect.
I live on a small game reserve, 5000 hectares, in South Africa. Every year we do game counts and veld analysis to asess what animals we need to take off and in what numbers.
There is a lot of science behind it and its a fairly complicated process but all goes into maintaining a healthy balance between the animals and the habitat.

In our situation we take off +/- 200 impala a year, some are sold to other farms, alot go to the butchers. Larger buck such as kudu/ waterbuck/ eland are mostly sold to restock other farms or to hunting farms. Most are captured in family groups and sold on like that.

This relooking at stocking numbers never stops if you want a healthy environment.
Maybe the uk authorities should look into some of these long standing tried and tested methods of game management. It would be alot more beneficial than trying to introduce predetors to the scenario. We have plenty of leopard here and the odd lion or two coming through and these factors are accounted for in the game counts so I know adding a few lynx to the picture will really make very little difference.

Lulie

Ah, but the natural thing is not for total stability but cycles in numbers, for a wide variety of reasons. Boom and bust is Nature's way. You admit that your aim is actually to have a game surplus for profit reasons, so you are not maintaining a "healthy environment" but calculating maximum yield of a few cash crop species.

Your place is minute in habitat terms - especially compared to apex predator ranges - and whether you do predator control or not you don't say whether anyone else does locally, so we have no idea what the predator carrying capacity of a realistic swathe of land around you is: or how near that figure the populations are or will be allowed to get.

Drawing huge conclusions from insufficient data is a common means of distorting reality.

John

 

[lulie]

Ah, but the natural thing is not for total stability but cycles in numbers, for a wide variety of reasons. Boom and bust is Nature's way. You admit that your aim is actually to have a game surplus for profit reasons, so you are not maintaining a "healthy environment" but calculating maximum yield of a few cash crop species.

Your place is minute in habitat terms - especially compared to apex predator ranges - and whether you do predator control or not you don't say whether anyone else does locally, so we have no idea what the predator carrying capacity of a realistic swathe of land around you is: or how near that figure the populations are or will be allowed to get.

Drawing huge conclusions from insufficient data is a common means of distorting reality.

John

Well, we never aim to have a game surplus for profit as you say, and no we aren't maximising the few cash crops. Impala were fetching about 20 GBP last year and we could get noone to take them off, subsequently we had to sit and watch 200 die of starvation as the draught stressed bush was browsed bare. There is never a total stability believe me.
The levels of animals are maintained for the soul reason of protecting the whole environment for the benefit of all mammals, birds, insects trees and plants ect, the whole package. We do not take part in predator control, and they are a factor in carrying capacity for a farm.

I live in an area that forms part of the greater kruger park, the team that does our veld analysis and game counts also do the same thing for the Kruger national park. They then advise on carrying capacities.
I would think that they do not 'draw huge conclusions from insufficeint data' as they are highly esteemed experts on animal management.
Yes my farm is small but i would bet that there are smaller deer estates in the uK.
I was really only suggesting that the UK could look to other experts around the world who have a long history with these issues of animal management. So much research and countless studies have been done here and around the world that surely some of this work must be of use to the UK trying to sort out wether it does or doesn't have a problem with deer populations, in or outside deer estates.( i believe the issue also involves populations outside managed areas as well causing a whole other set of problems) and how they might deal with the problems.

 

[Farnboro John]

Well, we never aim to have a game surplus for profit as you say, and no we aren't maximising the few cash crops. Impala were fetching about 20 GBP last year and we could get noone to take them off, subsequently we had to sit and watch 200 die of starvation as the draught stressed bush was browsed bare. There is never a total stability believe me.
The levels of animals are maintained for the soul reason of protecting the whole environment for the benefit of all mammals, birds, insects trees and plants ect, the whole package. We do not take part in predator control, and they are a factor in carrying capacity for a farm.

I live in an area that forms part of the greater kruger park, the team that does our veld analysis and game counts also do the same thing for the Kruger national park. They then advise on carrying capacities.
I would think that they do not 'draw huge conclusions from insufficeint data' as they are highly esteemed experts on animal management.
Yes my farm is small but i would bet that there are smaller deer estates in the uK.
I was really only suggesting that the UK could look to other experts around the world who have a long history with these issues of animal management. So much research and countless studies have been done here and around the world that surely some of this work must be of use to the UK trying to sort out wether it does or doesn't have a problem with deer populations, in or outside deer estates.( i believe the issue also involves populations outside managed areas as well causing a whole other set of problems) and how they might deal with the problems.

Well that's me told! Thank you for your level response to my provocation.

I believe the big cull in Scotland was a move to "bite the bullet" over deer population. Trouble is not all estates participated and also, apparently, some deer take steps to avoid being shot. This is a problem across the UK and I gather many BDS and other responsible estate management shooters have some difficulty reaching their annual targets for culling. Targets are set as a result of detailed management planning.

Apex predators would solve some of the problem though probably not all of it.

John

 

[lulie]

John,

You are definatly right that apex predetors would help.

I would think that shooters going out and taking single deer would prove a very impractical way to reach target numbers. Now doing a game drive with capture nets as we do would mean they could take off large numbers in one day. Its even possible to herd just females or just males or family groups as you need. But maybe its to cost restrictive to put these game capture units in place.
I have to admit to not knowing the full extent of the problem, just what you hear on the news.

The photo shows waterbuck being driven into a boma through capture nets, very effective.