The truth about magpies? (1 Viewer)

[markallen5]

Hello, i'm new to the forum and one thing i'd like to know is, just how much damage to songbirds nests do magpies do? We have a good population of songbirds which we encourage by feeding throughout the year.We also have quite a few magpies in the vicinity. I noticed last week that a pair of magpies have started to build their nest about 100 yards away from our backgarden and was wondering should I try to discourage them. I don't like to as they are, after all, lovely looking birds, and they can't help what they feed on. But at the same time I suppose I feel somewhat protective to all the songbirds that live in and around our garden.I would be grateful for any advice on this subject. Mark.

 

[ColonelBlimp]

Predators of all sorts are an integral part of ecosystems, helping to strop out the weak, the sick and the old. They in effect keep the population healthy, and so although magpies in particular can elicit real hatred when they are seen eating chicks and eggs, this is perfectly natural and is a part of a balanced ecosystem. Much the same with sparrowhawks.

However, from what I have read the predator-prey relationship can vary considerably due to human pressures. For example, in Scotland, I read that pine martens branching out into areas infested with grey squirrels (and thus far more squirrel prey density than there 'should be') have thus been recorded being at much higher densities than normal and impacting negatively on the population of another prey item, e.g. grouse sp. However, there the problem stems from man's influence, rather than the predator.

In some situations to protect critically endangered prey species or prey in the situation above where the are suffering from unnaturally high populations of the predator species, control is sometimes done by conservation organisations. But this is very much the exception. In your case, songbird populations are not critically endangered and mostly are actually increasing, I reckon in great part to food supplies. So whether the magpies need 'discouraging', the answer is most likely "defintiely not".

Hope this helps.

 

[David FG]

This is one of those hardy perennial discussions.

I don't very much like the 'ornithological apartheid' that seems to value some species more than others: that somehow 'song birds' are more important than, say, Magpies.

Apart from anything else, where does this stop? Woodpeckers will take eggs and nestlings, and should you rid the world of Cuckoos?

And if you really wanted to do birds a favour you should probably be out there culling cats.

It might not make you popular with your neighbours, though.

 

[markallen5]

Thank's for your reply. Yes there is much to think about. I would say that we have made things easier for carrion eaters due to the large amount of roadkill we provide for them. Some people I know would argue that this means we should try to even that out by killing some of them. Let me state now that I do not, and would never try to harm or kill any bird. By discouraging them I mean just that, but I suspect they would have the last laugh anyway! Mark.

 

[markallen5]

I've only just seen the reply by David Fg.It must have come in while I was doing my last reply. I see where you are coming from, and I probably agree with some of what you say. The argument for taking action against magpies, is based on what I put in my last answer, that we have upset the balance and should try to redress that. As i've already said , I do not suscribe to that point of view if it means harming anything.
As to the cat issue. Couldn't it be said that they just kill the slowest and therefore keep the population healthy? Do you, actually advocate killing cats? I hope you don't. It's not the cat's fault that man has bred them. Mark.

 

[David FG]

I've only just seen the reply by David Fg.It must have come in while I was doing my last reply. I see where you are coming from, and I probably agree with some of what you say. The argument for taking action against magpies, is based on what I put in my last answer, that we have upset the balance and should try to redress that. As i've already said , I do not suscribe to that point of view if it means harming anything.
As to the cat issue. Couldn't it be said that they just kill the slowest and therefore keep the population healthy? Do you, actually advocate killing cats? I hope you don't. It's not the cat's fault that man has bred them. Mark.

I possibly sounded a bit more 'aggressive' than I intended there.

As far as Magpies go, I'm not sure that there is a huge amount of evidence that they are doing much harm to the populations of song birds, and Magpies are at least a native species.

It seems to me that the cat is an entirely different thing altogether. This is an alien predator, maintained at levels that would be completely impossible in the natural state.

And although I am not actually advocating killing cats (I do have to live with my neighbours!) the argument that it isn't the animals' fault doesn't seem to me to be a strong one. It isn't the pigs' or the rats' fault that they have been introduced to islands on which the native species are defenceless against them, but I still support the attempts to eradicate them.

 

[ColonelBlimp]

Hear hear, I would persoanlly be quite happy to roast the cats that kill my garden birds on a spit...

 

[David FG]

Hear hear, I would persoanlly be quite happy to roast the cats that kill my garden birds on a spit...

Apart from anything else, what is the point of cats?

You can't take them for walks, they make useless guides for the blind, they are hopeless at protecting you against muggers and when they are not out molesting wildlife they are asleep.

 

[markallen5]

Just got back to this. Well Colonelblimp, if you are in my area, Don't bother calling as you wouldn't be welcome! We have 2 cats, did have 4, but cancer and old age have taken their toll. I love cats, always have. I also love birds, and yes if our 1 cat that goes outside actually kills a bird, i'm upset. Saying that, he's caught and killed only 1 bird in the last year or so, even though he is a good hunter as the local mouse population will testify. Whereas we've had about 4 birds die from flying into our kitchen window last year, yes, we do have hawk sillouettes on it. Should we take the glass out?

 

[Capercaillie71]

Apart from anything else, what is the point of cats?

You might as well ask, what is the point of birds?

 

[ColonelBlimp]

Just got back to this. Well Colonelblimp, if you are in my area, Don't bother calling as you wouldn't be welcome! We have 2 cats, did have 4, but cancer and old age have taken their toll. I love cats, always have. I also love birds, and yes if our 1 cat that goes outside actually kills a bird, i'm upset. Saying that, he's caught and killed only 1 bird in the last year or so, even though he is a good hunter as the local mouse population will testify. Whereas we've had about 4 birds die from flying into our kitchen window last year, yes, we do have hawk sillouettes on it. Should we take the glass out?

Alright, I may have been exaggerating, but letting an invasive predator out at numbers clearly unlike anything that would be seen naturally to do its worst on wildlife is a little antisocial, you have to admit.

 

[David FG]

You might as well ask, what is the point of birds?

But that would be silly.

 

[Alf King]

All predators, including cats, take only the surplus harvest. it's just that many "bird lovers" don't like to see it happen.

Now cars - that's a completely different matter altogether.

 

[David FG]

All predators, including cats, take only the surplus harvest. it's just that many "bird lovers" don't like to see it happen.

Now cars - that's a completely different matter altogether.

In the natural state, I agree. A predator that wipes out its prey will itself perish, so the system reaches an equilibrium.

Domestic cats are not part of the natural system: as has been pointed out above, they are present at levels that would be impossibly high in nature, and it doesn't matter whether they wipe out their prey as they are not dependant upon what they can catch: they are fed by their owners whether there are any small birds or mammals left or not.

 

[ColonelBlimp]

they are fed by their owners whether there are any small birds or mammals left or not.

Hear hear-I can't think of many natural predators that hunt for sport then go home to a warm fire and a bowl of kitekat!

 

[Fozzybear]

I read somewhere that domestic cats are thought to be responsible for around 60 million songbird kills each year, and as many as 300 million small mammal kills! Furry pet or no, the population of felines in our towns is vastly greater than any habitat could sustain in the wild and the pressure on wildlife is great. Cats are top predators and in a natural environment would have large territories and be spread very thinly, not the heavy density which they are found in reality. Imagine going about your daily life with a tiger on every street corner...

I 'quite' like cats in a 'pet one on the street (hoping not to get clawed) but would never want to own one' way and wouldn't suggest we need to exterminate all the kitties but they are a huge problem for the small wildlife in our towns and cities - I would far prefer a load of magpies in my garden to a a bunch of cats.

 

[Lewis 1980]

Hmm fascinating discussion... Well done for not getting too hot under the collar (forgive the pun) as some threads do.

I would like to throw squirrels into this equation...
Grey Squirrels were introduced by man to the British Isles and happily chomp on eggs/chicks etc.. they also have an impact on our native Red species.
How do you all feel about culling or allowing nature to find equilibrium in this case.

Also, for some people (the old/infirm and housebound in many cases) a cat will provide companionship and will surely help them feel less lonely.

 

[David FG]

Hmm fascinating discussion... Well done for not getting too hot under the collar (forgive the pun) as some threads do.

I would like to throw squirrels into this equation...
Grey Squirrels were introduced by man to the British Isles and happily chomp on eggs/chicks etc.. they also have an impact on our native Red species.
How do you all feel about culling or allowing nature to find equilibrium in this case.

Also, for some people (the old/infirm and housebound in many cases) a cat will provide companionship and will surely help them feel less lonely.

I would have no problem with a cull of Grey Squirrels

I don't have any issue with animals predating birds per se, it is with alien species which completely distort the natural balance - and on the subject, I am not sure that nature could find 'equilibrium' in the case of the Grey Squirrel, as a totally new ingredient has been thrown in - that I have problems.

And the GS isn't in the same position as the cat. Squirrels, alien or not, will have their populations limited by habitat, availability of food, predation and so on; none of which applies to the cat, which is completely (effectively) unlimited.

 

[Alf King]

In the natural state, I agree. A predator that wipes out its prey will itself perish, so the system reaches an equilibrium.

Domestic cats are not part of the natural system: as has been pointed out above, they are present at levels that would be impossibly high in nature, and it doesn't matter whether they wipe out their prey as they are not dependant upon what they can catch: they are fed by their owners whether there are any small birds or mammals left or not.

Please explain the difference between a "natural system" and real life.

In my view all systems are natural, including those containing cats and cars.

 

[Peewit]

I would have no problem with a cull of Grey Squirrels

I don't have any issue with animals predating birds per se, it is with alien species which completely distort the natural balance - and on the subject, I am not sure that nature could find 'equilibrium' in the case of the Grey Squirrel, as a totally new ingredient has been thrown in - that I have problems.

And the GS isn't in the same position as the cat. Squirrels, alien or not, will have their populations limited by habitat, availability of food, predation and so on; none of which applies to the cat, which is completely (effectively) unlimited.

Well said David. Could not have put it better myself.

Cute, sweet, cuddly and fluffy is not my idea of liking a Grey tree Rat. I hate them.

One of the many that invade our garden, had the nerve to look into our bird box this morning, I am glad to say that at least the hole has a metal plate so it cannot be gnawed.

At least cats do not carry diseases that kill of Native species that belong in the UK (like grey's do) An odd kill, but nothing like what the damage the Greys are doing, and the Reds have a long painful death! :-C:-C

I like cats too by the way, and do not approve of what they do. There are ways to deter them by keeping them indoors, or tying a collar with a loud bell around their necks.