What additions would you introduce to our avifauna....? (1 Viewer)

[KenM]

Goshawks are breeding in many German city parks. No reason why they could not colonize London sometime.

They are already on the periphery...hopefully just a matter of time.

Cheers

 

[Sangahyando]

Cooper's Hawk has evolved with Sharp-shinned Hawk (US equivalent to European Sparrow Hawk).

Sharpies are smaller than Sparrowhawks, which leads me to the conclusion that they evade competition from Cooper's Hawk by utilizing smaller prey items. Sort of like weasels and stoats. Also, for whatever reason Goshawks in North America are more restricted in their choice of habitat than in Europe, which to me suggests that the Cooper's Hawk fills part of the ecological niche in temperate broadleaf forests or mixed habitats, that the Goshawk occupies in Europe as well.

In short, we have Goshawks in Europe in a variety of habitats including urban ones, and there is no need for introducing Cooper's Hawk.
AFAIK the only limitation to Goshawk adaptation to man-made environments is the continued persecution of Goshawks by some cretins. Something tells me that those same cretins would not hesitate to target a similar species just as well.

 

[Jos Stratford]

I would also advocate ...

You really think the earlier suggestions were a good idea?

.... the re-introduction of New York House Sparrows and Starlings back to London, as they seem to be positively thriving. Perhaps they have evolved a resistance to whatever has brought about their respective demise in the Capital.

I would hope any reintroduction is based on a little more than a 'perhaps'.

House Sparrows and Starlings back to London

.... This would seem more worthwhile than Red Kites from Spain...

Spain, Sweden and Germany, no? If considering the species beyond the narrow confines of the UK, Red Kite has to be a higher priority than House Sparrow - a viable functioning Red Kite population in the UK is significant to the species as a whole. House Sparrow, despite its decline in Britain, is still abundant as a species per se.

 

[bitterntwisted]

Why not introduce an effective predator that "does just that" alongside a prey item that currently can't be controlled..

I know an old lady who swallowed a spider....

 

[MJB]

I know an old lady who swallowed a spider....

:-O:-O:-O
MJB

 

[KenM]

In short, we have Goshawks in Europe in a variety of habitats including urban ones, and there is no need for introducing Cooper's Hawk.

Mainland Europe doesn't ''host'' the Grey Squirrel...

 

[KenM]

I know an old lady who swallowed a spider....

.....Was the ''bird'' a Cooper's Hawk

 

[KenM]

You really think the earlier suggestions were a good idea?

Probably better!...and less destructive!...than all the pernicious introductions that have preceeded?...



I would hope any reintroduction is based on a little more than a 'perhaps'.

I use adverbs like probably and perhaps..because there is only one guarantee in life...as you should know.


Spain, Sweden and Germany, no? If considering the species beyond the narrow confines of the UK, Red Kite has to be a higher priority than House Sparrow -

How do you justify one species over another?


a viable functioning Red Kite population in the UK is significant to the species as a whole.

Doesn't this applies to all species...?


House Sparrow, despite its decline in Britain, is still abundant as a species per se.

Locally yes!...Nationally No.

I have no objection to the introduction of a species that once was, as I have no objection to anything that might be of benefit? be it aesthete or practical..but I would draw a distinction between those organisms that for what ever reason have been introduced, be it by design, or accident and clearly have a negative effect overall.

 

[Sangahyando]

Mainland Europe doesn't ''host'' the Grey Squirrel...

It does. Grey Squirrels have been introduced in some places in Northern Italy and elsewhere.
Also, seeing as Goshaws regularly prey on Red Squirrels, why on earth should they be inadequate at catching the grey ones?

 

[Allen S. Moore]

Locally yes!...Nationally No.

I have no objection to the introduction of a species that once was.

The house sparrow isn't a species that "once was" with respect to the UK. It is a species that "still is."

I have no objection to the introduction of a species that once was, as I have no objection to anything that might be of benefit? be it aesthete or practical..but I would draw a distinction between those organisms that for what ever reason have been introduced, be it by design, or accident and clearly have a negative effect overall.

I cannot think of a species whose introduction would be beneficial to an area where it didn't previously occur. Most introductions do "have a negative effect overall". Indeed, I cannot think of any "beneficial" introductions at all.

 

[KenM]

It does. Grey Squirrels have been introduced in some places in Northern Italy and elsewhere.
Also, seeing as Goshaws regularly prey on Red Squirrels, why on earth should they be inadequate at catching the grey ones?

Some places?..in Northern Italy and elsewhere, is hardly a ringing ''endorsement'' of mainland Europe..and can only have been within a very ''small'' time frame, as compared to the UK where they have been domiciled for circa 137 years. Long enough to upset the ''pure'' balance to the extreme, and driving our native reds almost into extinction..not to mention breeding at a higher density rate producing more young which in turn impacts on egg and fledgling survival of our native songbirds.

Goshawks at very best..were recorded only sporadically in the UK (from a breeding perspective) prior to their release in the '60's. I believe, ex falconers birds released, and probably originally procured from European stock. As far as gentilis is concerned..between '91 and '93 a survey in Wales found that mammals made up 13% of the prey items...mostly Rabbit..with an increase of Grey Squirrels being taken in woods that were less than a 1000 hectares.

 

[KenM]

The house sparrow isn't a species that "once was" with respect to the UK. It is a species that "still is."

Yes..It ''still is'' declining..year on year.


I cannot think of a species whose introduction would be beneficial to an area where it didn't previously occur. Most introductions do "have a negative effect overall". Indeed, I cannot think of any "beneficial" introductions at all.

Pheasants, Red-Legged Partridge...and lest I forget Chickens!...

 

[fugl]

I cannot think of a species whose introduction would be beneficial to an area where it didn't previously occur. Most introductions do "have a negative effect overall". Indeed, I cannot think of any "beneficial" introductions at all.

What about the introduction of the Little Owl to the UK? Any known bad effects? I assume not, since it seldom figures in these discussions.

 

[Sangahyando]

Goshawks at very best..were recorded only sporadically in the UK (from a breeding perspective) prior to their release in the '60's.

And why was that? Surely not because of the lack of suitable habitat. If the Goshawk had not been relatively common in Medieval England, its English name would probably be different. No, unless I'm much mistaken they were hunted to the brink of extinction, like so many species of native large predators.

I believe, ex falconers birds released, and probably originally procured from European stock.

Britain is a part of Europe.

As far as gentilis is concerned..between '91 and '93 a survey in Wales found that mammals made up 13% of the prey items...mostly Rabbit..with an increase of Grey Squirrels being taken in woods that were less than a 1000 hectares.

That may be so, but do Cooper's Hawks take any more squirrels than that?
Also, what about prey item lists from other parts of Europe, for comparison?

 

[Farnboro John]

Pheasants, Red-Legged Partridge...and lest I forget Chickens!...

Staying in the most bizarre B&B I've ever used, I listened to a bunch of huntin' shootin' and fishin' types discuss the decline of Black Grouse across Scotland in relation to the rise of intensive Pheasant keeping. Most of them were convinced that running too many birds on land was causing disease that disproportionately affected the grouse.

As for Red-legged Partridge, I would chart the decline to virtual extinction in my local area of Grey Partridge by the rise in putting down hundreds and thousands of Red-legs. Not only do shooters shoot partridges indiscriminately but replace only the Red-legs, but I am convinced the latter compete with Greys for resources.

No points!

John

 

[KenM]

Staying in the most bizarre B&B I've ever used, I listened to a bunch of huntin' shootin' and fishin' types discuss the decline of Black Grouse across Scotland in relation to the rise of intensive Pheasant keeping. Most of them were convinced that running too many birds on land was causing disease that disproportionately affected the grouse.

As for Red-legged Partridge, I would chart the decline to virtual extinction in my local area of Grey Partridge by the rise in putting down hundreds and thousands of Red-legs. Not only do shooters shoot partridges indiscriminately but replace only the Red-legs, but I am convinced the latter

compete with Greys for resources.

What squirrels...

No points!

Not even one?

John

My post that initiated your response was at best..tongue in cheek, and I believe, that there may well be a case to answer, regarding game birds.

However fugl's comment regarding Little Owl might have some mileage?

 

[njlarsen]

Locally yes!...Nationally No.
I have no objection to anything that might be of benefit? be it aesthete or practical..but I would draw a distinction between those organisms that for what ever reason have been introduced, be it by design, or accident and clearly have a negative effect overall. [/I]

Lots of historical examples were done because the introduced species "might be of benefit" and the result was that it contrary to expectations was having a clear negative effect. Please read some of the science about this instead of just going by imagination!

Niels

 

[davercox]

What Niels said. We do not understand anything like enough about the ecology of our environment to be able to predict the consequences of (re-)introductions. Simples.

 

[Allen S. Moore]

I honestly thought that the original post was a bit of a wind up, to start a thread showing that introductions are such a bad idea (having travelled in Australia I know that they are) by proposing that they are fine. He'll be saying next that egg collecting wouldn't have an adverse effect on bird populations.

 

[Amarillo]

Agree with everyone else. I know the original poster was only having fun, but with the damage caused by introduced species around the world, if you care about wildlife it just seems wrong to propose an introduction even in a light-hearted way.