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Who is this on my peanut cake? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter graemejw
- Start date
Colin
Axeman (Retired)
There are certainly fewer caterpillars around, at least in my part of the world. In the Forest of Dean, and I assume elsewhere, there used to be a glut of caterpillars every few years or so and the oak trees were rendered almost leafless and they grew a second set of leaves. In the years in between the 'glut years', there were still plenty of holes in the leaves made by these creatures. However, a 'glut year' has been long overdue and in about the last 10 years there has been very little evidence of caterpillars in the Forest and this year, like the last few, you really have to look hard for even a single hole in a leaf, they are all in pristine condition, so maybe extra food even for the caterpillar eaters would not go amiss.
Colin
Colin
Avoiding studying for exams.
Regardless of anything, a baby bird has the right to eat its natural food. There is no benefit for anyone but the humans to year round feeding. There are many ways of attracting birds to your garden, including bird lime and caged decoys. These are more obviously bad for the birds than spring feeding, but just because it's more obvious doesn't make it better or worse.
DO YOU WANT A RANDOM STRANGER DECIDING WHAT YOUR CHILDREN WILL EAT?
Seed eating birds should live where seeds are. Caterpillar eaters should live where the caterpillars are.
Providing extra food is probably the main reason for the decline in small garden birds; the decline has been more or less coordinated with massive increase in bird food sales. The food completely disturbs the process of natural selection which ensures that the species remains healthy and fit.
Lets get this straight in everyone's mind. If the blue tit in your garden raises only 1 chick then that is a good thing. If extra feeding means that blue tit raises 5 chicks, that is a very very very bad thing.
To be frank, you would probably be better off buying cat food instead of bird food and putting that out in the garden - that would save some of the many birds that humans are directly responsible for the deaths of. But the objective here is really the entertainment and pleasure of the person who feeds, not the welfare of the bird.
Who regular puts food ONLY in places where they can't see it? That would prove that you were interested in birds and not interested in your own feel-good rating.
There is NO sound argument for spring and winter feeding, and MANY sound arguments against it. If there is an argument in favour of feeding, could someone please give it?
As for mealworms, as a occasional nutritional supplement the are good for many caged birds. In excess they are a nightmare. A wild bird is programmed to find and eat the most calorific food, like peanuts and bacon rind; in the natural setting, high calory food is hard to come by. Peanuts, bacon rind and ESPECIALLY mealworms (Yes, I know they love them, but people love cocaine, chocloate and whiskey) completely distort the balance of the diet.
Why don't you just stop poisoning the invertebrates in your garden? Anyone who puts down both slug pellets and bird food, is an out and out idiot. Stop killing off the food and providing extra food to replace what you have killed.
Regardless of anything, a baby bird has the right to eat its natural food. There is no benefit for anyone but the humans to year round feeding. There are many ways of attracting birds to your garden, including bird lime and caged decoys. These are more obviously bad for the birds than spring feeding, but just because it's more obvious doesn't make it better or worse.
DO YOU WANT A RANDOM STRANGER DECIDING WHAT YOUR CHILDREN WILL EAT?
Seed eating birds should live where seeds are. Caterpillar eaters should live where the caterpillars are.
Providing extra food is probably the main reason for the decline in small garden birds; the decline has been more or less coordinated with massive increase in bird food sales. The food completely disturbs the process of natural selection which ensures that the species remains healthy and fit.
Lets get this straight in everyone's mind. If the blue tit in your garden raises only 1 chick then that is a good thing. If extra feeding means that blue tit raises 5 chicks, that is a very very very bad thing.
To be frank, you would probably be better off buying cat food instead of bird food and putting that out in the garden - that would save some of the many birds that humans are directly responsible for the deaths of. But the objective here is really the entertainment and pleasure of the person who feeds, not the welfare of the bird.
Who regular puts food ONLY in places where they can't see it? That would prove that you were interested in birds and not interested in your own feel-good rating.
There is NO sound argument for spring and winter feeding, and MANY sound arguments against it. If there is an argument in favour of feeding, could someone please give it?
As for mealworms, as a occasional nutritional supplement the are good for many caged birds. In excess they are a nightmare. A wild bird is programmed to find and eat the most calorific food, like peanuts and bacon rind; in the natural setting, high calory food is hard to come by. Peanuts, bacon rind and ESPECIALLY mealworms (Yes, I know they love them, but people love cocaine, chocloate and whiskey) completely distort the balance of the diet.
Why don't you just stop poisoning the invertebrates in your garden? Anyone who puts down both slug pellets and bird food, is an out and out idiot. Stop killing off the food and providing extra food to replace what you have killed.
JW,
Surely in a particulary harsh winter providing any sort of nutrition
for wild birds helps? Your other point about"idiots" and slug pellets is not valid in your post because you are asuming that
people who feed birds, also kill slugs.
I do have feeders in my garden but I dont garden apart from weed occationally and cut the lawn, but I suspect I like the majority of folks nowdays dont use any sort of pestacide, slug pellets or whatever.
back to your point about feeding, some of the worlds greatest Naturalists would disagree with you, Take for example the late Sir peter scott, His set up at slimbridge shovels tons and tons of feed out to whooper swans etc every winter , are you saying this is wrong? birds and man have lived together for Thousands of years, sparrows and the like have actively sort out mans habitation to take advantage of food that is left over from the harvest etc.
Seagulls and crows have followed the plough and fishing boats for centuries,they rely on man to find food.
Your point about the feeding of birds for our own gratification is a double edged sword for both man and bird, I dont see how you can make accusations, without facts, I think man has made to much of an impact on nature, not to help out when birds are hungry or struggling to survive in modern times.
over to you.
Surely in a particulary harsh winter providing any sort of nutrition
for wild birds helps? Your other point about"idiots" and slug pellets is not valid in your post because you are asuming that
people who feed birds, also kill slugs.
I do have feeders in my garden but I dont garden apart from weed occationally and cut the lawn, but I suspect I like the majority of folks nowdays dont use any sort of pestacide, slug pellets or whatever.
back to your point about feeding, some of the worlds greatest Naturalists would disagree with you, Take for example the late Sir peter scott, His set up at slimbridge shovels tons and tons of feed out to whooper swans etc every winter , are you saying this is wrong? birds and man have lived together for Thousands of years, sparrows and the like have actively sort out mans habitation to take advantage of food that is left over from the harvest etc.
Seagulls and crows have followed the plough and fishing boats for centuries,they rely on man to find food.
Your point about the feeding of birds for our own gratification is a double edged sword for both man and bird, I dont see how you can make accusations, without facts, I think man has made to much of an impact on nature, not to help out when birds are hungry or struggling to survive in modern times.
over to you.
Michael Frankis
conehead
Hi Jwsindub,
I understand and appreciate a lot of what you say is valid, but I would guess that most if not all of us here don't (knowingly) poison invertebrates. It is the neighbour's slug pellets, not ours, as we don't have any.
But there's clearly a wider, and deeper, problem with insect life in Britain - Colin's last post is one good example, as the Forest of Dean is a large area and does not receive any pesticide input, yet is still feeling the malaise. There are plenty more examples, too. The real trouble is, no-one knows (yet) why many insect numbers, and many insectivorous bird numbers, are declining even away from heavily sprayed intensive farmland. Plenty of theories, but no hard research findings. And until we find out why, nothing useful can be done about it.
I have reservations about putting out birdfood too (mentioned some of them a week or two ago, have to see if I can re-find the thread), and don't put out any myself, but I don't want to order others to stop doing so.
Yes, (some) people love cocaine, whisky, etc, but they (and ALL other people) also love fruit, veg and a bit of meat - and if the supply of friut, veg & meat is absent, they survive even less well than those given free access to the whisky, etc. And that, regrettably, is the situation we are dealing with.
Michael
I understand and appreciate a lot of what you say is valid, but I would guess that most if not all of us here don't (knowingly) poison invertebrates. It is the neighbour's slug pellets, not ours, as we don't have any.
But there's clearly a wider, and deeper, problem with insect life in Britain - Colin's last post is one good example, as the Forest of Dean is a large area and does not receive any pesticide input, yet is still feeling the malaise. There are plenty more examples, too. The real trouble is, no-one knows (yet) why many insect numbers, and many insectivorous bird numbers, are declining even away from heavily sprayed intensive farmland. Plenty of theories, but no hard research findings. And until we find out why, nothing useful can be done about it.
I have reservations about putting out birdfood too (mentioned some of them a week or two ago, have to see if I can re-find the thread), and don't put out any myself, but I don't want to order others to stop doing so.
Yes, (some) people love cocaine, whisky, etc, but they (and ALL other people) also love fruit, veg and a bit of meat - and if the supply of friut, veg & meat is absent, they survive even less well than those given free access to the whisky, etc. And that, regrettably, is the situation we are dealing with.
Michael
birdman
Орнитол&
Re: Avoiding studying for exams.
Hi jwsindub,
You talk a good argument, and you entitled to voice you opinion, but you cannot take umbridge at someone else's opinion just because it doesn't tally with your own - and yet give no substantial evidence for your own point of view.
Says who?
Agreed, but your point is...???
Don't anthropomorphise.
And puttng out food prevents this how?
Evidence please.
Why, exactly?
So you're anti-cat. Well so am I, but that's a whole different debate, I think!
I would dispute that as a statement of absolute fact.
Probably no-one, but then I suggest you stop birdwatching altogether, as it only disturbs the birds, and is only done for your own feel-good rating.
You have given no argument, yourself.
An alarming use of irrelevant points used as a psuedo-argument.
Hi jwsindub,
You talk a good argument, and you entitled to voice you opinion, but you cannot take umbridge at someone else's opinion just because it doesn't tally with your own - and yet give no substantial evidence for your own point of view.
You assume therefore that the parent birds will supply unnatural food?
Says who?
Agreed, but your point is...???
Don't anthropomorphise.
And puttng out food prevents this how?
Evidence please.
Why, exactly?
So you're anti-cat. Well so am I, but that's a whole different debate, I think!
I would dispute that as a statement of absolute fact.
Probably no-one, but then I suggest you stop birdwatching altogether, as it only disturbs the birds, and is only done for your own feel-good rating.
You have given no argument, yourself.
An alarming use of irrelevant points used as a psuedo-argument.
How do you know that this is not already the case?
Paul Rule
Well-known member
JW
You obviously feel very strongly about this, but your preaching “holier than thou” tone is not helping your argument.
I dont have the time to go into along winded response to you on this but I will raise one issue.
You surely cannot be serious. If every pair only produced I fledged chick, the species would be extinct in a very short space of time. Small birds do not have a long lifespan and adult / juvenile mortality is high, which is why they have large broods.
Paul
You obviously feel very strongly about this, but your preaching “holier than thou” tone is not helping your argument.
I dont have the time to go into along winded response to you on this but I will raise one issue.
You surely cannot be serious. If every pair only produced I fledged chick, the species would be extinct in a very short space of time. Small birds do not have a long lifespan and adult / juvenile mortality is high, which is why they have large broods.
Paul
Last edited:
walwyn
Well-known member
It has been a hell of a long time since I saw a Blue Tit eat a snail, or slug for that matter in the garden. I don't recall the Greenfinch eating them either, nor the house sparrows, or starlings. And in our last house we used to get up to 30 sparrows roosting in the ivy wall at night. On some occassions it was difficult to get to sleep at night for the twittering. As for eating slugs and snails, well I don't believe they ever did that.
Songthrush: we have quite a few where I currently live, they eat snails and have plenty to choose from. Just walk down the path at night and you'll its, crunch, crunch, crunch, at every step. I do recall reading somewhere that songthrush did better than blackbirds in areas of scarce food supplies. In areas of plenty blackbirds do better and push out songthrush.
Songthrush: we have quite a few where I currently live, they eat snails and have plenty to choose from. Just walk down the path at night and you'll its, crunch, crunch, crunch, at every step. I do recall reading somewhere that songthrush did better than blackbirds in areas of scarce food supplies. In areas of plenty blackbirds do better and push out songthrush.
Richard Ford
BF Member
Well I agree with Birdman pretty much.
I think jwsindub raises few points that he actually backs up with any evidence.
Some of them appear ridiculous, the one that sticks out for me is:
Who says, apart from you…?
Please give an example of a sound argument against feeding in the winter.
I don’t claim to be an expert, but it appears jwsindub does, so if you can convince me to stop feeding the birds in my garden all year round which I believe to be for there benefit not mine, then I will. Like many others I expect, I make sure there is food available in my garden all year round and all day long. I may get the chance to actually look at the birds that are feeding for perhaps a total of one hour a week.
Has Steve paid certain members, to be deliberately controversial, insuring everlasting threads and lively debates…….. Hmmmm…
Rich
I think jwsindub raises few points that he actually backs up with any evidence.
Some of them appear ridiculous, the one that sticks out for me is:
Who says, apart from you…?
Please give an example of a sound argument against feeding in the winter.
I don’t claim to be an expert, but it appears jwsindub does, so if you can convince me to stop feeding the birds in my garden all year round which I believe to be for there benefit not mine, then I will. Like many others I expect, I make sure there is food available in my garden all year round and all day long. I may get the chance to actually look at the birds that are feeding for perhaps a total of one hour a week.
Has Steve paid certain members, to be deliberately controversial, insuring everlasting threads and lively debates…….. Hmmmm…
Rich
G
Goshawk
Guest
I think that JW is way out of line and I have to agree with all the statements raised against his thoughts.
I have to wonder why he is in this forum with such extreme views. What on earth can he gain by trying to force his opinion on people like he has tried to do.
It is right and proper to put your point of view over. You do that, then see how the debate goes on. It might be for or against your argument. That is what debate is all about but to keep on coming back time and time again with the same argument is tantamount to forcing your opinion on others.
I have to plead guilty at loving to watch birds coming to my bird table. It is one step to being close to nature without actually being in the countryside, something that city people will understand. We, that live in cities and large towns, can't be in the countryside for the majority of our lives. Garden birds, and the feeding of them, I suspect plays a large part in getting people interested into birdwatching in the first place. Over the years I feel that humans have contributed to the welfare of our Urban birds and to some degree have helped to stop the decline with certain birds (I have no evidence to support this just a gut feeling).
JW
You will have to accept that your argument is not being accepted by others and let it go.
I have to wonder why he is in this forum with such extreme views. What on earth can he gain by trying to force his opinion on people like he has tried to do.
It is right and proper to put your point of view over. You do that, then see how the debate goes on. It might be for or against your argument. That is what debate is all about but to keep on coming back time and time again with the same argument is tantamount to forcing your opinion on others.
I have to plead guilty at loving to watch birds coming to my bird table. It is one step to being close to nature without actually being in the countryside, something that city people will understand. We, that live in cities and large towns, can't be in the countryside for the majority of our lives. Garden birds, and the feeding of them, I suspect plays a large part in getting people interested into birdwatching in the first place. Over the years I feel that humans have contributed to the welfare of our Urban birds and to some degree have helped to stop the decline with certain birds (I have no evidence to support this just a gut feeling).
JW
You will have to accept that your argument is not being accepted by others and let it go.
Hi all,
This is quite an interesting debate,just hope that people agree to differ and things don't get nasty(no signs of that as yet,but then I wouldn't expect it to!).
Funnily enough,I have noticed a strange phenomenon here:while the likes of Greenfinches and tits haven't declined in Cork city as a whole,they all seem to have more or less deserted our garden!About 10 years ago(and until the mid 90's),we regularly got a few Greenfinches,daily Blue and Great Tits(and semi-regular Coal),daily Chaffinches etc....and then very few since the late 90's.Haven't seen a Coal Tit in the garden for a few years now!
House Sparrow numbers have remained stable in the area,Sparrowhawks don't appear to have become more regular(and anyway,if this were so then why would some species be affected and others of similar size not be affected?),we don't have much problems with cats due to owning a dog.There HAS been a noticable increase in Starlings,which could be partly responsible for frightening off other birds,but the peak numbers of this species occur around now,with the recently fledged juvs coming in en masse.Numbers in winter are much lower.
Perhaps the generally mild winters of late could remove the need for these birds to visit the garden?Our garden is small,and the surrounding area has few trees/bushes,so they may not visit unless they really have to.
Harry H
This is quite an interesting debate,just hope that people agree to differ and things don't get nasty(no signs of that as yet,but then I wouldn't expect it to!).
Funnily enough,I have noticed a strange phenomenon here:while the likes of Greenfinches and tits haven't declined in Cork city as a whole,they all seem to have more or less deserted our garden!About 10 years ago(and until the mid 90's),we regularly got a few Greenfinches,daily Blue and Great Tits(and semi-regular Coal),daily Chaffinches etc....and then very few since the late 90's.Haven't seen a Coal Tit in the garden for a few years now!
House Sparrow numbers have remained stable in the area,Sparrowhawks don't appear to have become more regular(and anyway,if this were so then why would some species be affected and others of similar size not be affected?),we don't have much problems with cats due to owning a dog.There HAS been a noticable increase in Starlings,which could be partly responsible for frightening off other birds,but the peak numbers of this species occur around now,with the recently fledged juvs coming in en masse.Numbers in winter are much lower.
Perhaps the generally mild winters of late could remove the need for these birds to visit the garden?Our garden is small,and the surrounding area has few trees/bushes,so they may not visit unless they really have to.
Harry H
Colin
Axeman (Retired)
Hmmmm. I checked the forums this morning and then again tonight and there seems to have been an explosion of posts in this thread today. So I have been thinking what JWXYZ has been saying.
If it is unnatural to put out bird food in my garden I can easily stop that. For example, he says that Blue Tits (and all the other birds) should just get their own natural food. Therefore I will have to remove all of the non native plants from my garden because they may have non native food on them. I could stop the birds getting to them by putting a dirty great net over my garden to stop all birds getting in but in the long run one may succeed so the better and lower maintenance option would be to concrete the garden over completely. I could put up the net anyway to keep the birds out as well.
I could go on to get all my neighbours and their neighbours to do the same and the "concrete jungle" would be complete without any animals or plants. So, now the birds are confined to the countryside for their food but wait, there are many farms that are really just like an ordinary garden only on a massive size, in that they have non native crops and what about the woodlands with tracts of non native trees.
Concrete the lot over and there remains a lonely Homo sapiens as the only living thing on the planet but to his horror he realises then that he has destroyed himself (and his cats!! :cat: ).
:gn:
That reminds me, the bird feeder is nearly empty, must fill it up again in the morning.
3
Colin
If it is unnatural to put out bird food in my garden I can easily stop that. For example, he says that Blue Tits (and all the other birds) should just get their own natural food. Therefore I will have to remove all of the non native plants from my garden because they may have non native food on them. I could stop the birds getting to them by putting a dirty great net over my garden to stop all birds getting in but in the long run one may succeed so the better and lower maintenance option would be to concrete the garden over completely. I could put up the net anyway to keep the birds out as well.
I could go on to get all my neighbours and their neighbours to do the same and the "concrete jungle" would be complete without any animals or plants. So, now the birds are confined to the countryside for their food but wait, there are many farms that are really just like an ordinary garden only on a massive size, in that they have non native crops and what about the woodlands with tracts of non native trees.
Concrete the lot over and there remains a lonely Homo sapiens as the only living thing on the planet but to his horror he realises then that he has destroyed himself (and his cats!! :cat: ).
:gn:
That reminds me, the bird feeder is nearly empty, must fill it up again in the morning.
3
Colin
G
Goshawk
Guest
Colin
I couldn't have put it better without becoming sarcastic (tee hee).
Lovely boy!!!
I couldn't have put it better without becoming sarcastic (tee hee).
Lovely boy!!!
