Sharpest or most pleasing view whats the story? (1 Viewer)

richt said:

Hi to all

First off a huge vote of thanks to forum members for all the really "top" info and opinions on numerous binoculars that can be seen here ok people differ and debate (sometimes robustly) but this is a really good place to pick up valid info

Read many threads over my time here (sometimes obsessively it seems) but finally felt i would like to post one of my own as i am somewhat baffled over a viewing quandry recently discovered its not a super techy thing more an interesting end view query

Here we go then i recently purchased a cracking pair of nearly new 10 x 42 Nikon Se porros from forum member (Hi andrew) which are in non expert analysis terms really razor sharp across the circle, bright ,light and "lifelike" to my eyes (OK not perfect as eye positioning is a quirk not fully water proofed and fov is only average)

Then looking for low cost second pair for wife who is taking interest now (in birds and nature not me !! after all i have been wed 11 yrs !! ) just kidding chanced across old used 98% condition Zeiss 10 x 50 wide multi coat Jena pair in local Photo shop looked thru these and was frankly astonished as they seemed really "easy and pleasing view" swiftly purchased for the princely sum of £39 with original leather case and 6 mth guarantee the shop even dug out 2 odd objective covers from other pairs pair that practically fitted (thanks Hilton Photographic)
Now these binoculars i realise are heavy,unfashionable and definitely not waterproof in any sense
but....my question is this having used both pairs quite a bit recently in varying conditions even though my brain and eyes (which are doubtless probably a little worn to be fair at age 43 ) tell me my Nikon SE's are definitely sharper,lighter in weight and contrast also more precise etc than these "ageing Zeiss's) for some inexplicable logic defying reason in certain general viewing situations i really enjoy picking the Zeiss "heavies" up and massively enjoy these "golden oldies" ease of view its almost as if the Nikon's expect more from me when i'm just generally viewing (if that makes any kind of sense at all ?)
Obviously when fine detail viewing and for "pin sharp clarity" the Nikon's rise immediately to the fore but i cannot "shake off" the viewing comfort these "now wife owned" Zeiss's give even the weight to hold them seems to be ok presumably due to decent balance
I had feared that my wife when offered these would say "old and heavy not me the bins!!) but she actually likes them and said simply after using them a while "these are really clear and easy to look thru )
I dont for one minute want to suggest that ultimate "pin sharpness" and "ultra brightness" are not hugely desirable in all binoculars as these very factors were amongst my reasons for buying the Nikon's in the first place and i really enjoy them when viewing but its almost as if certain binoculars (old or new) can simply seduce the eyes in a quite undefinable manner

Answers/views on a postcard please ?
this is intended as a "light hearted" thread (seen some intense one's on forum lately) and i'm not a fully paid up member of either Nikon or Zeiss appreciation societies

only the other day when glancing thru a pair of Swift Audubon's 8.5 x 44 porro's i thought that they were "right up there" with anything i have looked thru to date so am very neutral and appreciate there are "loads" of fabulous bins out there

Rich (slightly baffled)

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Jane Turner said:

AS everyone here knows I am a huge fan of the old east german zeiss bins. My first proper pair of bins were a new pair of 8x30 jenoptems purchased for £26... eons ago....that took some saving up. Yes they leak.... yes they are subject to a little rocking of the eyepieces (simply remedied by winding them up and down) They are and were so cheap you could have afford to have a few pairs... one to use and one drying out....one in the car etc and they always feel so pleasing in the hand...

They are not as good as a top of the range pair... but they out perform many of newer mid-range bins...

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Antony Kay said:

When comparing binoculars, especially used ones, you must be sure they are both in good nick (clean and in collimation etc). You probably found the Zeiss 10X50 (Jenoptem?) easier to use than the Nikon 10X42 SE because the Zeiss will give a brighter image due to its larger object lenses. Also its weight helps to keep them steady. The Zeiss (Jena) optics are excellent, usually, but the binoculars are not very robust and quite 'leaky'. Also, they weigh a lot (not so good for travelling) and their eye relief is poor so they are not too good for spectacle wearers..

When looking through binoculars, colour temperature can often play a part. Some people's eyes are more sensitive than others to this and you are trying to get the best match of one optical system (the binos) to another (your eyes). Examples of colour temperature in top-notch binoculars are: Zeiss Dialyt (warm), Leica Trinovid (cold), Swarovski (in between the two).

Hopes this helps.

Tony

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christineredgate said:

I often meet a couple of 80yr old chaps when I am out and about birding and one of them has a very old,very heavy pair of Zeiss bins which he says he bought when he was 20yrs old.I also seem to remember he says he bought them as a second hand pair.So that must say something for this manufacturer.I have looked through them,and yes ,I was very impressed.

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jcbouget said:

Rich

The reason why your Zeiss provides a better ease of view than the Nikon is probably the larger exit pupil. I suppose you know that, when you hold a binocular at arm’s length, you see a circular bright spot, which is the place where all the rays coming from the eyepiece are crossing : this is the exit pupil. The best position for the eye pupil is the centre of the exit pupil.

Now, suppose that your eye pupil is only 2 mm wide, and you look through the Nikon 10x42, whose exit pupil is 4.2 mm. If you want to look at an object in the right part of the image for example, you have to turn your eyes towards the right, and your eye pupil is going to shift to the right, so that it can be located outside the exit pupil : you can’t see nothing at all !
The two only ways to avoid this effect is to look only at objects located near the centre of the field of view, or to move slightly the binocular when looking off-axis.
The Zeiss has a 5 mm exit pupil, so you can turn your eyes farther from the centre without loosing the view.
Binoculars with 2.5 mm exit pupil are rather uncomfortable, because only the very centre of the image can be examined in a relaxed manner.
You can check this hypothesis : make an aperture stop for your Zeiss, with a 42 mm central hole, in order to turn this 10x50 binocular into a 10x42 one. The ease of view will be noticeably altered.

Another reason can be a huge eye relief, that is to say a big space between the eyepiece lens and the exit pupil. If your eyes are closer to the eyepiece than the exit pupil, you can experiment very uncomfortable blackouts when you look towards the edges of the image. I know that Nikon SE binoculars have big eye relief. Perhaps too big for you ? Try to move slightly back your binocular in order to verify if the ease of view is better.

Third, there is another phenomenon which is the Kidney bean effect : it occurs when all the rays emanating from the eyepiece do not cross at the same place. There is not a unique exit pupil, and it’s difficult to find the right position for the eye. This phenomenon occurs mainly on some ultra wide angle astronomical eyepieces, but some people think the Nikon SE binoculars suffer from kidney bean effect too. Perhaps there is a confusion with a too big eye relief.

I think however that the larger exit pupil of the 10x50 is the main explanation.

Jean-Charles

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Hermann said:

Well, I also have a weak spot for binoculars with large exit pupils. Large exit pupils make using bins in *any* light easier, simply because placing the eye within the exit pupil becomes easier, and to my eyes the difference between an exit pupil of 4.2mm (as in the 10x42 SEs) and an exit pupil of 5mm (as in the Jena 10x50s) is quite pronounced. I suppose it it weren't for the size and weight I'd probably carry a pair of 10x60s for everyday birding, however, the size and weight is the real killer here.

Another point is that some bins feel "just right" even though they may objectively not be as good as some others. I really, really like my 40 year old pair of Zeiss 8x50Bs, even though the coatings aren't up to scratch and they're heavy. I like the way they handle, I like their three-dimensional image, I like their large exit pupil. But when it comes to serious birding I always reach for my 10x40 roofs, knowing full well that they'll show me more detail when it comes to the crunch and they are just easier to use for a full day's birding.

Hermann

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richt said:

Hi Hermann

Yes this sydrome of bins "feeling right" is difficult to quantify
I love my Nikon's just for sheer definition right across the circle but i think the old Zeiss Jena's i bought for the wife despite weight and size (the bins! not my wife) just seem to have this very simple ease to pick up and look thru
Not as sharp as the Se's but really pleasant and bright to use
I honestly regard the £39 i paid in 98% condition with case and 6mth gurantee etc as an absoloute bargain and i can now appreciate why so many of these 10 x50 and other old Zeiss models seem to still sell well on the used market


Rich

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