• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Is a good view predictable? (1 Viewer)

Specs are a great way to start. I commonly use B&H 'compare' feature to narrow things down. So it's up to you to decide what your priorities are. Common ones for me are ER (i wear glasses), and weight (I hike a lot). Of course price matters (to most). Size perhaps if they are for travel.
Transmission curves are interesting, but really, optics are sooooo good that it's a moot point (almost). Reviews matter because things such as CA and flat-vs-pincushion field is very subjective.
 
People seem to find it very hard to accept the fact that better optics cost more to manufacture, so they will sell at a higher price. This doesn’t even address better materials, construction, or tighter tolerances.

The corollary to that is that the more you pay, the more likely it is that you will get better optics.

Constant argument over whether the difference is “worth it” or pointing out that if you pay twice as much, the optics aren’t “twice as good” just doesn't seem helpful.

Only my opinion, as usual.
 
Last edited:
People seem to find it very hard to accept the fact that better optics cost more to manufacture, so they will sell at a higher price.
Indeed, but some years ago Meopta and Kowa (scopes in particular) were not generally regarded as premium products.
Now their reputation has spread, they have used minor facelifts as a justification for massive price increases.
I recall that many years ago Patek Philippe's production could not satisfy demand. A price increase only served to boost their exclusivity and order backlog.
It's the same with Rolex today.

John
 
Indeed, but some years ago Meopta and Kowa (scopes in particular) were not generally regarded as premium products.
Now their reputation has spread, they have used minor facelifts as a justification for massive price increases.
I recall that many years ago Patek Philippe's production could not satisfy demand. A price increase only served to boost their exclusivity and order backlog.
It's the same with Rolex today.

John
Among the many things about which I know absolutely nothing, the world of Rolex and equivalents is but one.
 
Rolex is mocked now, but the history is a bit different. BITD, Rolex made unique 'tool' watches and by virtue of case and winder design, were an exception to the rule (with a few exceptions). Of course the dive watches speak (spoke) for themselves but even the 'plain' watches were what you wanted if you were climbing, exploring, travelling, etc. And in a non-digital world, tho not the only ones so rated, they were one of the best, most robust, chronometer certified wristwatches. They did not start out as boutique glitter wrist jewelry. It is true that they figured out how to create the mystique and marketed internationally to those wanting to flaunt their often new-found wealth, largely because the need for mechanical watches was declining and the Swiss watch industry at-risk.
I suppose one could argue that optics companies continue to do something similar. TO this day we argue about MIGermany vs MIJ vs MIC. Cars and cameras the same to a degree. I suspect it's generational... I hear yesterday that the biggest growth in US auto sales was the Korean marques, and the biggest sales in EV's is the Chinese brand - whose name I can't recall, which is telling in and of itself ;-)
 
People seem to find it very hard to accept the fact that better optics cost more to manufacture, so they will sell at a higher price. This doesn’t even address better materials, construction, or tighter tolerances.

The corollary to that is that the more you pay, the more likely it is that you will get better optics.

Constant argument over whether the difference is “worth it” or pointing out that if you pay twice as much, the optics aren’t “twice as good” just doesn't seem helpful.

Only my opinion, as usual.
There are a few things here worth examining ..... from an engineering business perspective.

"People seem to find it very hard to accept the fact that better optics cost more to manufacture, so they will sell at a higher price. This doesn’t even address better materials, construction, or tighter tolerances."

-> A product that is deemed a premium brand/product will without doubt have a far higher markup .... i.e. the cost of producing it, marketing/etc vs the selling price. There is a reason why companies, given a choice, all want to be in the higher level 'premium' goods markets.

So an "Alpha" might sell for £2500, but cost £500 to manufacture and £100 to distribute (inc warranty). The markup is thus £2500-£600 = £1900.
An entry level bin might sell for £200, but cost £100 to manufacture and £50 to distribute (inc warranty). Markup is £50.

= x12.5 times the selling price, x4 product cost, x38 markup

Conclusion: The actual cost of raw materials, machining costs, outsourced components etc are definitely not proportional to the markup.
e.g. an 'alpha' magnesium body raw material and CNC machining cost will not be very much different to a mid level bin.


"The corollary to that is that the more you pay, the more likely it is that you will get better optics."

-> To a degree yes. I concur, without debate, that the glass and coatings in a premium bin will be better than a mid level bin. However, not that the premium bin will have £1500 glass and the mid will have £100 glass.

"Constant argument over whether the difference is “worth it” or pointing out that if you pay twice as much, the optics aren’t “twice as good” just doesn't seem helpful."

-> The additional price paid for a premium 'alpha' bin over a mid level is predominantly made up of markup i.e. profit for the premium manufacturer.
So the 'twice the price, not twice as good' is probably very accurate, as the additional premium paid by the customer does not go proportionally into the
product itself, but does go into the profit and loss sheet of the premium manufacturer.



Without even considering these individual points about market segmentation, which are all fairly standard for most products ..... compare something like a good mid £1000 GPO HD (or Nikon EDG....etc) vs a premium £2500 Zeiss SF.
The SF is 'better', but the optics of the GPO HD are not £1500 'inferior' to the SF. The SF enjoys a premium image, with marginally better optics and the customers buying the SF are happy to pay the additional premium for the marginally better optics.

The decision to buy premium optics, at large markups is a personal choice. As BF is full of enthusiasts, it is unsurprising that many buy premium products for the marginally better optics.
 
Last edited:
I think that would have been been a good way to phrase it.

As I mentioned in the OP I don't insist on either alpha glass or Zeiss, but I tend to start there because of the "Wow!" I experienced decades ago with Zeiss and a "Meh..." with Swarovski. The Nikon Superior E moved me off of Euro-only glass, so I then posted the OP.

The short "no" answers to my questions were definitive but not particularly helpful, except in a negative sense; specifications won't lead me where I want to go, but doesn't tell me much (with a few exceptions) about how to get there. From them I gather I don't need to stick with 8x42 with its exit pupil specification to get a great view; that's good news as I search for something less heavy. Unfortunately, I live in a an optics store desert in which I can't go in and just try out bins without significant pre-planning.

So, yes, please offer different phrasing and also, please, avoid one-word answers.
For your optics store desert difficulty, you might consider contacting dealers who sell online to inquire about a home trial option.

For your question about 8x42, less heavy topic, here are some contributing factors for determining fit. The exit pupil can be calculated as objective diameter divided by magnification. For 8x42 that means the exit pupil is 5.25 mm diameter.

When viewing in bright daylight (most of my viewing), my pupils are under 2 mm. This means light in an exit pupil larger than 2 mm will have some fraction falling outside my eye pupils. However, an exit pupil wider than my eye pupil makes getting on the bird easier. When I go out with an 8x20 (2.5 mm exit pupil) on a typical bright day, even some of the light coming into the exit pupil is not collected by my eye pupil. It does take me a few minutes of use to get in the rhythm of popping that 8x20 into the right location to line up for a good view. On the other hand, my 10x42 has a 4.2 mm exit pupil and is easier to get onto a bird, though now the vast majority of light in the binocular does not enter my eye pupil. A larger exit pupil does not equate to brighter image lumens in the eye in this case.

When viewing in dim light, my eyes have pupils of 4.5 mm or smaller. This means that the benefit for me of an exit pupil over 4.5 mm is only in the ease of getting on the bird in dim light, no optical benefit for light arriving outside that size for me, this varies by person and age. And I don't use binoculars for star gazing, my dim light viewing is never that dark, just dawn or dusk typically. I recommend you measure your eye pupil diameter in light conditions covering the range in which you will be observing.

These factors can be used for fit considerations. Yet there are other linked factors, like ease of bringing the binocular onto the bird, personal eye geometry, and so on. While one can identify some specific factors for "fit" still the final analysis really requires individual trial for what works for you, not a paper prediction.

For weight, your thought to go lighter, there may be individual reasons for wanting lighter in your next step. If so, your knowledge of your own eye pupil diameter range may be useful for prediction, giving a direction worth testing. For example, if you like 8x and are comfortable getting onto bird with a 4 mm exit pupil binocular then you can look into 8x30 and 8x32 to get the weight down. Personally, I find weight can be a benefit in the case of 10x since larger mass is more stable in the hand once on the bird. But larger mass can be tiresome on a neck strap, a harness may be the choice.
 
Six years ago I bought a pair of Zeiss 8x42 Victory SF with, IIRC, 18mm eye relief, and could not get a view without blackouts (or possibly other issues). I phoned either Zeiss or the retailer about the issue and they sent me a replacement set of eyepieces, longer by 3mm, that had three clicks. These are perfect; middle position with eyeglasses, fully out without eyeglasses. They are perfect for me, weight aside.
Most interesting! I called USA Zeiss and spoke to someone in New York last year, asking for help with the exact same problem - the eyecups in the 8x42 SF do not come up high enough in the top position. With the OEM setting, in bright sun they become pretty much not useable. Something that is not an issue in the Nikon, Leica, and Swaro bino's I've tried.

The man actually laughed and said "that's been a problem in Conquest but we've NEVER had anyone call with this issue on the SF's before". So I carry on with a combination of o-rings and rubber bands to get them to work. I can get the correct height on them by unscrewing the eyecups an additional 1.25 turns out past the top clickstop and using the rings & bands to hold them in place.

They're excellent other than that. Very frustrating to see this amount of fine optics and mechanical design compromised by such a minor issue that would be cheap to address for Zeiss. It's a shame, I might have been tempted to try the 8x32 or 10x42 SF as well. I tried the 8x42's at the bird store twice before buying, but I stayed indoors and looked out the windows. I suspect the blackout problem is worsened in bright sun when my pupils dilate down to a small size.
 
See link, post number 14.

Link

I'd forgotten - it wasn't Zeiss I called, but rather Eagle Optics instead. They must have got them from Zeiss, however.

Mine is the grey body model that had short eyecups. Perhaps yours already have the higher eyecups? In any case, I did measure them, but unfortunately I did not record the actual height of the shorter set in that post, just how much higher it was than the first ones. I have remeasured them just now at 1.633 inches. (Disclaimers: same calipers, perhaps different pressure, wear on eye cups, etc. - certainly not as good as if I had recorded it originally.) The original, shorter, eyecups must have been somewhere approximately 1.512 inches high at max extension.
 
I'd forgotten - it wasn't Zeiss I called, but rather Eagle Optics instead. They must have got them from Zeiss, however.
Jay - thanks for that info! You might be right that the current eyecups are actually the longer ones....seems like Zeiss made a few changes to the SF's that first year or two after they came out. Unfortunately it looks like Eagle Optics sleeps with the fishes

Eagle Optics Closing:
After over 30 years as a successful sport optics retailer, it became even more challenging to run a specialized business, and on 12/31/17, Eagle Optics is ceasing all business operations.

It is amazing how much the eyecup height affects things with the 8x42 SF. They go from being my worst binos to my favorite binos if the eyecups are in the right place. This current kludge (workaround) I have is best! It gives me pinpoint control over the height and fixes them in place - rubber band sandwiched between an o-ring and the threads:

IMG_2997.JPG
 
I have written several times in the past regarding magnification and significant or non significant numbers.

When one sees a magnification of 338x then this is likely to be just wrong.
However, 333x may have some relevance.

Even experienced astronomers write down unlikely magnifications, although others understand significant figures.

Firstly the objective focal length is likely to be 1% or more wrong.

More importantly the eyepiece focal lengths are sometimes 5% or 7% wrong.

Then the type of scope matters.

If it is a main mirror focus type, particularly small sizes of 90mm aperture or less, then using a prism or diagonal can cause a 15% or more error compared to no prism or no diagonal.

Then the observer's eyesight. Either without glasses or with glasses. Both cause errors.

With birder's spotting scopes writing 53x is fine, as the magnification will be near this.

It is magnifications over 100x or over 200x that are clearly not correct.

So, I will write 300x or perhaps 305x rather than 303x

Horace Dall measured eyepiece focal lengths to extreme accuracy with his own measuring device.
I told him the 6 element eyepiece I had was 20mm focal length.
He said, no it is 3/4 inch as he knew these were made to tight tolerances, perhaps by Barr and Stroud?
This is a nice wide angle eyepiece but uncoated.

The problem of significant figures is less bothersome to me than the 10-380x100 binoculars, 900x25 binoculars or 4000x25 binoculars, which are just fraudulent.
Why the internet allows these lies I don't know.

Regards,
B.
 
Perhaps I can find the one I wrote 50 years ago... I'd be glad to send it to you if you're interested in learning about it.
Thanks, I was thinking about general information. If you could get it made into a sticky, it may help, but I don't have high hopes.
 
Jay - thanks for that info! You might be right that the current eyecups are actually the longer ones....seems like Zeiss made a few changes to the SF's that first year or two after they came out. Unfortunately it looks like Eagle Optics sleeps with the fishes


Eagle Optics Closing:
After over 30 years as a successful sport optics retailer, it became even more challenging to run a specialized business, and on 12/31/17, Eagle Optics is ceasing all business operations.
IIRC, Eagle Optics closed its doors soon after one of the alphas decided not to list with them any longer. Again, IIRC, there was some concern that Eagle was using the alpha yearly product briefing to retailers to help with its own product positioning and when that was no longer available then keeping the Eagle Optics running no longer made sense for them. Can't swear to it and would retract if challenged as I have no citation.
 
Thanks, I was thinking about general information. If you could get it made into a sticky, it may help, but I don't have high hopes.
You're welcome, but there is no paper. It was a too-subtle way to suggest that I've known about significant figures for decades. In my "1.633" inches, "1.63" are significant, but since I used three figures past the decimal point in 2016 and was going to subtract them I allowed a non-significant figure creep in by measuring four times and taking the mean of the figures to achieve "1.633." Pardon me - I'll stay significant after this.
 
….. you can quote any number of significant figures, what you need is an expression. Of confidence in the number… an uncertainty statement (“error bar” in not technical lingo). Eg 1.63+-0.05. Then we know how much we can trust the trailing numbers…..

Peter
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top