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Overall Best Binoculars (1 Viewer)

That's what is known as making a mountain out of a mole hill, Dennis. CaF2 and FPL53 make functionally identical telescopes, not only for visual use, but even for more critical uses like astronomical imaging using cameras with high sensitivity into the far violet.

You would think so but there is still alot of amateur astronomers who like Caf2 scopes for the images they form. Caf2 scopes form an almost "cyrstalline" looking image which is beautiful to behold. Refractors guys are amazing in how they worry about the types of glass that are used in their scopes. There are also different quality levels of glass within each designation. Really the construction, design, and the quality of figuring the lenses has more to do with a top quality finished scope.

Dennis
 
Put it down to my inexperience but to me optical superiority is everything, if that comes in a Chinese flavor then I'll take it whatever the cost. I have no concern around slow focussing or play in eyecups if the image appears the best it can to me. If I know that the image is not up to scratch then I will always be wanting, wondering what I am missing.
 
I totally agree with you on that. I'm not a birder per se, except in a casual way, as an addition to my general outdoors enjoyment, but I use my bins a lot and I really appreciate that whole package you speak of. Until recently my old Leitz 7x35 Trinovids were my most enjoyable bins from a "whole package" stand point. Now, even though I own the excellent 8x42 Ultravid BRs, my Nikon 8x32 SE have taken place as my new favorite whole package bin. I just enjoy them more. With the Ultravids and other high end roofs, I find myself analyzing the view rather than just looking and observing. The SEs just seem to be an extension of my eyes and mind.

If its raining hard I'll take the Leicas that day, otherwise the SEs are going to be hanging from my neck.
john

Eaxctly. The Nikon 8x32 SE's are just as if you walked up closer to what you want to look at. They are clear and bright with almost no distortion in any way. You really should try the Zen Ray 8x43 HD's though! They are alot like the Nikon 8x32 SE's except with a roof prism type of view. Almost as sharp too. You will be amazed.

Dennis
 
Put it down to my inexperience but to me optical superiority is everything, if that comes in a Chinese flavor then I'll take it whatever the cost. I have no concern around slow focussing or play in eyecups if the image appears the best it can to me. If I know that the image is not up to scratch then I will always be wanting, wondering what I am missing.


That is exactly the way I am. I will put up with a few imperfections in binoculars if the view is there. That is exactly why I like Zen Rays 8x43 ED's!

Dennis
 
Why do so many people feel threatened?

Because these new Chinese EDs seem revolutionary in a variety of ways, though few of them to do with the specs of the binos themselves. My interest is in keeping binocuholics honest, to themselves and to nascent binocuholics visiting this forum for advice and perspective, through full disclosure. I realize that I probably share that interest with about 3 other people on earth, but that's what a thread on Birdforum is for!

--AP
 
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From the testimonials here on Birdforum, the answer seems to be yes.



I'm not worried about those brands. They're just labels, and not really the drivers of new innovation in binos. They've got plenty of name recognition and distribution. By the time the rest of the world (outside us optics enthusiasts) learns about the "Chinese EDs" they'll have Bushnell, Minox and Leupold labels on them, or perhaps it's more accurate to say they won't hear about them until these brands have added these binos to their product lines.



Right now, everyone is making apologies for the slow focus and the stiff focus in the cold. I agree that these are problems that might be easy to fix, but until they are, these binos are not 99% as good overall birding binos, at least to me. The slow focus on the original Swarovski EL was really irritating (I know, I own one), no matter how many rationalizations/excuses (same as those repeated for the Zen ED) were floated. And if you bird in the cold a lot, stiff focus due to cold is unacceptable.

I've spent quite a bit in the past on binoculars (on a progression of alphas) in search of the "perfect" birding (and butterflying) binocular. For the few of us who are this committed to having a no-compromise birding binocular, even the $360 versus $2000 price difference is ultimately trivial (After all, a Zeiss 7x42 Classic is 99% as good or better than a Swaro 8.5x42 EL, and if you already own the former, you save about $1600 by deciding not to buy the latter!). The appeal of top-end binos has always been more about the whole package than optical superiority. That's why I've always preferred optically inferior top-end roofs to say, the Swift Audubon 804ED or the Nikon 8x32 SE despite their (in the past, when they were first released) substantially lower costs. I am very excited about what the Chinese EDs offer for first-time "serious" bino buyers. However, I must say that I don't understand the thrill that some of my Birdforum colleagues, who have well established track records of spending (as I have) ridiculous amounts of money on binos in the quest for 1% increases in perfection, seem to be experiencing in now (after all that past spending) "saving" $1600 on a bino that's no better than many of the binos that they already own, or have owned but sold in favor of binos that were little better and no cheaper (actually, usually more expensive). My guess is that they just like to buy binoculars, good binos especially, and that they're thrilled that this purchase only required $400. Will they (these binocuholics), after a few months or years have gone by since their Zen ED purchase, be able to resist the next generation of Swarovski, Zeiss, or Leica bins (if they ever exist), even though they will cost $2500+? My guess is no.

--AP



My checking account balance will help me resist the $2500.00 alphas. I am excited that Zen Ray has come along an offered a really top quality binocular for a price I and other people can afford. At $360.00 you don't have to worry about them so much either like you do your $2K Swarovski EL. Another advantage.

Dennis
 
I don't think it's accurate to say that all who won't confess that the chinese EDs are the equal of the alphas are "threatened". In my case, I got a screaming deal on my Zeiss 8x42s and even in the current economy I could sell them at virtually no loss, buy a chinese ED and pocket the difference. How is that prospect threatening? If I thought it was a good idea, I would do it immediately. There are lots of very good binoculars that are not, IMO, as good as the very best. The chinese EDs are among the very best buys in that category. I don't think I'm exactly insulting anyone when I say that.

It's also fair to wonder whether a company that's been making binoculars for a few years is going to be around to support their customers down the road like Nikon, Leupold, Zeiss and Leica will, which have all been in business since before WWI.
 
I am excited that Zen Ray has come along an offered a really top quality binocular for a price I and other people can afford. At $360.00 you don't have to worry about them so much either like you do your $2K Swarovski EL. Another advantage.

Dennis

Am I likely to see much difference betwen my brand new Hawke Frontier ED's and the Zen-Ray ED's. I cannot imagine improving on such magnificent image quality, and that's after trying out some £1200 Swaro's. Prepared to place an order with them if the answer is yes.
 
Put it down to my inexperience but to me optical superiority is everything, if that comes in a Chinese flavor then I'll take it whatever the cost. I have no concern around slow focussing or play in eyecups if the image appears the best it can to me. If I know that the image is not up to scratch then I will always be wanting, wondering what I am missing.

So you bought the Hawke because you thought it had the best image regardless of cost? And you'll buy another if you think it might be slightly better? I see more binos in your future!

--AP
 
Am I likely to see much difference betwen my brand new Hawke Frontier ED's and the Zen-Ray ED's. I cannot imagine improving on such magnificent image quality, and that's after trying out some £1200 Swaro's. Prepared to place an order with them if the answer is yes.

Ha! The game continues.... If cost is no object, do try the Zeiss 7x42 and 8x42 FL (and Leica 8x42 HD). They're arguably a step up from the Swarovski 8.5x42 EL, at least w/respect to CA control, so maybe you should bypass the Zen?

--AP
 
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Ha! The game continues.... If cost is no object, do try the Zeiss 7x42 and 8x42 FL (and Leica 8x42 HD). They're arguably a step up from the Swarovski 8.5x42 EL, at least w/respect to CA control, so maybe you should bypass the Zen?

--AP

My bino collection won't stop at the Minox/Hawke's I have now or Xen's. Whilst I have dismissed the Swaro's I tried yesterday (on the basis that my Hawke's were as good or better) I am now on a journey and Zeiss are absolutely on my list to view. But, and it's a big but, there has to be a discernable difference in image quality before I shell out regardless if I can afford to do so. My Hawke's were a lot cheaper than my Minox but provide a better image. Again, shallow as I may be, image is paramount.
 
I'm in a similar position to Alexis regarding these binoculars. I already use optically better binoculars and arguably have equal or better back ups. I don't like to order items with no intention of keeping them and even $360 is too much to spend for something I don't really want. I've mentioned these threads to some local birders who are looking for binoculars in this price range. If someone buys a pair I'll certainly try to test them in detail.

Meanwhile the most useful information posted here for my purposes continues to be Ron's (Surveyor) tests in post #20 from this thread:

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=122545
 
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Denco-
7x42 is the BEST forget the rest. I tried all the configurations and 7x42 blows 8x42's away everyday!

Try a 7x42 Leica BN. Just try them. They are made by god! I assure you.

2nd that! I will never go back to 8x42 binoculars after having 7x42's


I don't know Dennis, if ZEN makes a 7x42 it could be dangerous to your health. ;)
 
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Well, I figured the subject matter of this thread would come up sooner or later. Frankly, I figured it would have come up sooner than this.

I was faced with somewhat of a quandary when I bought my Promaster Infinity Elite ELX ED and it began to dawn on me just how good of a binocular it is. Trust me, the Promaster is up for all of the same accolades as the ZEN ED. You can barely separate the difference between those two with a very sharp razor blade, or if you prefer, with a very expensive surgical scalpel. The quandary was “how do I go about this without raising howls of derision and blackening the skies with clouds of suspicion”? I figured the alpha backers would spring forward immediately with sharpened retorts. So, I figured the only way possible was to report what I saw the way I saw it and to try and be honest with the approach I took. As to the slow focus, I have pointed that out from my first post onwards.

So as to drinking the Chinese cool-aid, or blatant promotion, I have never promoted these as a purely Chinese product. What I have tried to do, both here and at other forums is to give an evaluation of the optics as they appear to me in use in the field. My comments would have been the same regardless of the place of manufacture. I have purposely maintained that they are a 99% of alpha quality for 33% (or even less) than what you pay for an alpha. If you wish to push that down a point or two, fine. The point is optical quality (or at least image quality) as the sole domain of the alpha is no longer completely valid. The point is we now have an inexpensive alternative to the alpha class.

Just where was this optic supposed to come from? Europe, yeah right, Swarovski, is real likely to produce a $400 challenge to their EL or SLC. Made in the USA? Nice idea but that capability is long gone. Made in Japan? Not likely. Zen Ray had to go to China because they couldn’t get the quality they wanted or flexibility they needed from Japanese manufacturers. They tried, just to avoid the made in China syndrome, and Japanese inflexibility and quality control isues forced them to China.

Right now, I have to say I am pretty much in complete agreement with Alexis Powell in post #38, and with Henry Link in post # 52. If you are used to the alpha class and your interest is in only new purchases that will better what you have, these will serve you no useful purpose beyond satisfaction of some curiosity. What they might do for the alpha user is to provide an inexpensive backup for some purposes.

If you have an extensive expertise in testing optics such as Henry Link, than I have no doubt he can take one of these to his bench and point out inferiorities that exist as compared to the alpha class. I have already conceded the silver coated vs dielectric coated prism technology, the fact that the alpha broadband coatings are likely superior, and that they have better overall glass quality is very likely a given. Add in superior optical design, workmanship, and company history if you want.

I have always thought that the best reason for having an alpha class binocular is to eliminate any vestige of doubt that might exist in one’s mind. If you are going someplace on the trip of a lifetime, or use your binocular extensively, or simply want the best instrument you can get, then the alpha class is the only place for you to be. The idea of “I’d made that ID if I’d not have been cheap and got a better glass” is not something you will have to contend with.

But, when we get down to just what is seen from use in the field, I think a number somewhere north of 90% of regular binocular users will not be able to separate differences in image between the ZEN class and the alpha class. I happen to be completely confident that if I miss the ID, it’s because I just wasn’t able to make it, not because of need of a better binocular. Nor do I have any particular fear they will self destruct in the field. My peresonal desire for an expensive alpha glass is now gone.
 
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Well, the alphas may beat them mechanically. What I see is Pentax SP quality materials and build with alpha optics. Even the mechanics are at least as good as Chinese Nikons. But as they are new players, there is still room to improve, sort of like Vortex.
 
Due to my very recent venture into binoculars I hope I can be forgiven for having very little history to guage the opinion of what is the best overall binoulars. However, putting these Zen's/Hawkes/Promasters aside have there been any other newcomers that showed such promise (compared with Alpha kit) only to fall by the wayside with poor aftermarket service or degrading optics/image? Seems to be a concern of many of the Alpha owners.
 
I have to admit that I only glance at the optics threads in the Forum anymore. Given the recent price increases (not to mention proposed price increases) I really can't imagine purchasing any optics. If I where in the market I would look at the Chinese bins but I don't know any store where I could look before I buy.

Threads on "Alpha" optics seem to be way down in number. Maybe I am wrong here. A new Leica scope package (including eyepiece which I guess you need) runs between $3,000-$4,000. Not going to happen. That amount of money is a lot of travel expenses and a lot of life birds.

Mike
 
I'm in a similar position to Alexis regarding these binoculars. I already use optically better binoculars and arguably have equal or better back ups. I don't like to order items with no intention of keeping them and even $360 is too much to spend for something I don't really want. I've mentioned these threads to some local birders who are looking for binoculars in this price range. If someone buys a pair I'll certainly try to test them in detail.

Meanwhile the most useful information posted here for my purposes continues to be Ron's (Surveyor) tests in post #20 from this thread:

http://birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=122545

How do you know your binoculars are optically better if you have not tested the Zen Rays yet. The "Seeing Eye" just might be surprised!

Dennis
 
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