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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

I do not like green cast and ham - 10x alpha redux (3 Viewers)

cyclist

Member
A month ago I took possession of the following: SV 10x42, SV 10x50 and Zeiss 10x42SF with the desire to audition and then add a quality 10x to my existing bino inventory. My initial sense was that the SV's had preferable color rendition and resolution and the Zeiss better handling. At first, due to the inclement weather, I was only able to use them from my front porch but with the rain clearing, I spent more than three weeks after work down by the seashore evaluating these fine instruments.

I spent little time with the SV 10x50's after I determined that they were a bit too large for my purposes and, in addition, my sample was not as quite as sharp as its smaller brother. Still, a great view can be had if one is willing to carry the weight.

The selection between the Zeiss and Swaro 10x42's took all three weeks. It was a very difficult choice. And while the final result is indicated by the subject line of the post, I'd like to articulate my experience.

While my initial sense that this would come down to view vs ergonomics, proved correct, there is a bit more to the tale.

The shoreline that I frequent provides both open vistas of water and rocky cliff faces. Snowy plovers are on the beach, waders in the wetlands surrounding the tidal zones and pelicans plunge into the water and swim on the water's surface. In addition, elsewhere on the hike, there are rocky outcroppings and cliff faces inhabited by gulls and cormorants. Sea lions frequent rocky promontories. On occasion, cetaceans can be observed.

In sunny weather, I preferred the view through the SV time and again. The clarity and color rendition was for me, simply superior. The green cast of the Zeiss was very, very apparent. If I hadn't had the SV to A-B I would have been totally satisfied with the Zeiss, but when moving from one view to the other, in good light, I much preferred the color rendition of the Swaros.

I know that there has been some debate on the forum as to whether the green cast of the SF is prominent, or even still present on more recent iterations of the SF and to these suggestions I would note two data points:

a) My wife who is not a binocular user, when looking through the Zeiss for the first time, specifically asked about the cast. An engineer by training, she immediately noted the color infidelity.

b) The SF had only just been restocked by EO (after a 2 month wait period). Presumably it's fresh off the boat from Germany.

So, you might ask, if I much preferred the color rendition and superior resolution of the SV why did it take three weeks for me to decide which one to keep?

The answer is threefold. For one, I'd underestimated how much I'd value the ergonomics of the Zeiss. From the balance, to the comfortable armor to the buttery smooth focus they were absolutely a joy to use. And I would point out that the SV came with one of the best Swaro focus mechanisms I've ever used. But I smiled every time I reached for the Zeiss. They really are terrific in the hand. Secondly, the larger FOV provided by the Zeiss became more and more appealing; addicting really. It was a very, very immersive experience. Thirdly, while I didn't much care for Zeiss' idea of color in daylight with good sun, things became quite different when the shadows lengthened and dusk arrived. The verdant vegetation popped and sizzled; it took on a very appealing glow and objects stood out vividly against that backdrop. Now none of this is surprising given the eye's sensitivity to the green part of the spectrum that Zeiss is enhancing with its coating, but it was striking and appealing.

So there you have it.. the inculpatory evidence for keeping the Zeiss. And you know what? If I only birded (think green trees and shrubs) and better yet,only used them under gloomy skies in verdant lands (think Ireland, the UK, Germany), I would LOVE the view through these optics.

But I don't. On the Central Coast of California, sunshine and golden hills are more the norm and I want the full color experience. Even the wonderfully immersive FOV of the ZEISS was diluted by the green cast; almost like a thin green transparent veil had been placed over the scene reducing the realism.

Would I ever own the Zeiss SF? If it came with a more natural color rendering; in a heartbeat. Might I own it sometime in the future anyway? Could be. I miss the handling already. But I'd have missed the Swaro view more.
 
Cyclist, post 1,
I have not studied the 10x42 SF but we did a thourough investigation of the 8x42 SF and it definitely does not have a green cast or color infidelity. That was established by eye and fully confirmed by the measured transmission spectra.
Gijs van Ginkel
 
Hi Gijs,
I know that that is what your transmission data say on your sample but my perceptual experience - and my wife's - on my sample are in congruence with Tobias Mennle's experience. Them whites ain't white and them reds are awfully muted. But if you like green... I only wish I'd been sent your example.

Regards,

Michael
 
Michael, post 3,
It was also on the basis of my perceptual experience that I could conclude that the 8x42 SF did not show any green cast and the transmission spectra only confirmed my obervations. Whites showed up perfectly white with the 8x42 SF's I have seen I can not help it. I will ask some other users here to check also ( may take a litttle while since I am finishing two test reports).
Gijs
 
I didnt notice a green cast in the few minutes I spent with one, but then again my wife and I disagree on oranges and reds. What I call orange, she tells me is red
 
Cyclist,

It may be a coincidence but the last Zeiss HT I tried also had a distinct yellow/green cast which I thought reminiscent of the Zeiss FL. This was quite unlike previous samples of the HT or indeed the SF I've previously seen. It will be interesting to see if these are rogue samples or some design change in due course.

David
 
Looking through an 8x42 SF admittedly briefly, I did not notice a green cast, but I did notice that, the same as my 8x32FL Victory, to me they do seem to lack just a little colour depth when compared to the older BGA T*P classic series, or my Swaro SLC. Great binocular, but personally, did not tempt me quite enough to replace my FL with one. The newer Zeiss range since the Classics seem to be exceptionally bright, but I am wondering if this extra bright view is achieved at the expense of a little colour rendition, still all great binoculars, but as with most optics, there is always a compromise somewhere it seems.
 
Well i am not the only crazy guy who notice Green cast on SF together with tobias....

Must be sample variation in coatings from very early production units to the most recent ones.

Anyway a little bit green cast is Zeiss heritage as red cast is characteristic Leicas.

But some SF early ones shows Huge amount of green cast, not at the same level of the Zeiss oberkochen 10x50 but very obvious.
 
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Since so may of you saw green casts in the FL's, the HT and the SF, somebody may be able to help me and sketch a transmission spectrum (not measured, but purely from what you think it would look like) and I can perhaps come a little further.to understand what you saw.
Gijs van Ginkel
 
Since so may of you saw green casts in the FL's, the HT and the SF,

Not so many actually Gijs, and just as many have looked for it and not found it, so what our friends have seen is really quite puzzling.

If you look on Google Maps for Berneray you will find an island just off the north coast of North Uist in the Scottish Western Isles. Select satellite view and you will notice that the entire west and north-west coast is one huge long beach. The 'sand' there isn't sand at all but is the broken up shells of sea creatures. It is bleached calcium so is really white. Through an 8x SF and a 10x SF it is also white. This is big, big feature in the view when you are walking on it. Under summer sunshine it gleams dazzlingly. Your naked eye is assaulted with whiteness and then through the SF it is the same: white.

Lee
 
Since so may of you saw green casts in the FL's, the HT and the SF, somebody may be able to help me and sketch a transmission spectrum (not measured, but purely from what you think it would look like) and I can perhaps come a little further.to understand what you saw.
Gijs van Ginkel

Hi Gijs,

The photo below of light transiting an 8x54 HT (left) and 8x56 FL shows the kind of mild green cast I have seen and photographed in several FLs and at least that one particular 8x54 HT.

The transmission spectrum of the 8x42 FL on page 18 of your review below possibly shows the kind of spectral curve that could cause that kind of slight bias.

http://www.houseofoutdoor.com/testrapporten/Test-42mm-kijkersMEI-2011.pdf

What I see is peak transmission of about 92% between 540 and 550nm (green), which falls off in both directions, reaching around 82% at 450nm (blue) and 650 (red). That looks to me like the curve of a very mild green filter, probably too mild to be noticed under many lighting conditions or by every observer.

Henry
 

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The 7x42 T*FL I had also had a very mild greenish/yellowish tinge to them. Again, it was exceptionally mild but there and not noticeable under all field conditions.
 
Hello Henri, post 11,
The pictures you show in your post do not ring any green cast on my screen (I have a good screen for showing colors, so that is not a problem) and the wavelenght you mention as being green (440-450 nm) are actually firmly in the blue part of the spectrum. So that does not convince me as being proof of a green cast yet, but I am open for further arguments.
Jremmons, post 12,
It is dark here now, so I can not check it now, but tomorrow I will take the 7x42FL at daylight and let you know what I saw
Gijs
 
Gijs,

Sorry I miss-typed. 440-450nm should read 540-550nm. I'll go back and correct it in my original post.

Here are some crops of the photo below which make the color bias of the binoculars more obvious. 8x54 HT is on the left, 8x56 FL on the right, the unaltered background color in the middle. As I said, not all observers will notice.

Henry
 

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Thank Henry,

I think it's a bit more obvious when actually using the binoculars, but I find it clear enough in both the first photo and the crop regardless of which screen I use.

I always felt the the Allbinos transmission profiles for the FLs were a pretty good match for my visual impressions of colour bias. I have seen HTs which appeared to be reasonably neutral but the last one I tried had a FL like bias to my eyes.

http://www.allbinos.com/177-binoculars_review-Carl_Zeiss_Victory_8x56_T*_FL.html
http://www.allbinos.com/238-binoculars_review-Carl_Zeiss_Victory_8x42_T*_FL.html
http://www.allbinos.com/191-binoculars_review-Carl_Zeiss_Victory_8x32_T*_FL.html

David
 
Henry,
what did you take as background (middle picture)? On my screen is is bluish-grey. The spectrum of the HT 8x54 is almost flat in the wavelength region 475-575 nm so it is curious that there could be a color bias.
Visually I look at perfect white surfaces to check a color shift and in the ideal case your middle picture should be perfectly white as well.
Gijs
 
My usual interjection here (not taking any one side other than to say we all "perceive" differently):

1. The workings of individual eyes paired with individual brains are not computers and some will perceive slight differences in color cast...

2. I still firmly believe that hemisphere/lattitude/seasons also affect the individual perception of slight color bias...
 
My usual interjection here (not taking any one side other than to say we all "perceive" differently):

1. The workings of individual eyes paired with individual brains are not computers and some will perceive slight differences in color cast...

2. I still firmly believe that hemisphere/lattitude/seasons also affect the individual perception of slight color bias...

True, i can see it in the crops, but not in the first photo
 
Gijs,

Here's the full frame. To my eyes the color bias is even more apparent in this image. The background is actually white, but it looks bluish and dark in the photo because it's intentionally underexposed and on this day I needed to use northern sky light rather than direct sunlight as the light source. Even if the background is not completely white it's still neutral enough to show the difference between the color of the background light that falls directly on the camera lens and the very same color as modified by transiting the binocular optics.

Henry
 

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I see it in both.... for what its worth.

Gijs, how do the SLC and Companion stack up to the EL under the same test you reference with pure white background? Is the EL in its own league? or do the others perform as well???

Thanks,

CG
 
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