AOU-NACC Proposals 2019 (1 Viewer)

[andrew147]

Feels like the renaming of common names of birds when they refer to obviously offensive language or refer back to folks who weren't terribly great people is (literally) the least we can do. Why are so many people up in arms over the names of birds that aren't even remotely native to your country?

:clap::clap::clap:

well said!

 

[Andy Adcock]

Feels like the renaming of common names of birds when they refer to obviously offensive language or refer back to folks who weren't terribly great people is (literally) the least we can do. Why are so many people up in arms over the names of birds that aren't even remotely native to your country?

Because this is supposed to be a list of common 'English' names, not a mosaic of languages that people feel are 'evocative', as I've heard said a few times. My gripe is not the name changes per se but the useage of more and more non English names.

I don't care what continent birds are on, this is supposed to be an English language list and to justify the proliferation of foreign words that are more and more regularly proposed, by pointing to the odd species such as Jacana, is in my view, unjustifiable. I have no issue with the removal of honorific names for whatever reason, I believe that the name of a bird should be at least, a little descriptive in terms of appearance or habit.

You're not righting any historical wrongs, by naming a bird in some obscure or indiginous language, or any other language for that matter.

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Because this is supposed to be a list of common 'English' names, not a mosaic of languages that people feel are 'evocative', as I've heard said a few times. My gripe is not the name changes per se but the useage of more and more non English names.

That you give strictly English names to birds is not problematic if you don't give the same name to species or families that are not related (e.g. Flycatchers, Warbler, Bunting, Wren , Tit etc. ) That we maintain stability, I understand, but it must be consistent with current taxonomy and phylogeny and giving identical names for unrelated species make nonsense.


That's why I don't really like English bird name, not because I'm French, but because I find them vague, confusing and misleading. From there, you can hate me
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Andy Adcock]

That you give strictly English names to birds is not problematic if you don't give the same name to species or families that are not related (e.g. Flycatchers, Warbler, Bunting, Wren , Tit etc. ) That we maintain stability, I understand, but it must be consistent with current taxonomy and phylogeny and giving identical names for unrelated species make nonsense.


That's why I don't really like English bird name, not because I'm French, but because I find them vague, confusing and misleading. From there, you can hate me
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

You don't need to like our names, you have your own.

When English names were derived, the people of the day, did not have the benefit of DNA anaylsis and some birds do appear at first glance to share the characteristics of more than one species e.g Wren Babbler, what is wrong with that?

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

You don't need to like our names, you have your own.

Trou, hem, sorry, true. But, you know what I mean, in short.

 

[Mysticete]

Because this is supposed to be a list of common 'English' names, not a mosaic of languages that people feel are 'evocative', as I've heard said a few times. My gripe is not the name changes per se but the useage of more and more non English names.

I don't care what continent birds are on, this is supposed to be an English language list and to justify the proliferation of foreign words that are more and more regularly proposed, by pointing to the odd species such as Jacana, is in my view, unjustifiable. I have no issue with the removal of honorific names for whatever reason, I believe that the name of a bird should be at least, a little descriptive in terms of appearance or habit.

You're not righting any historical wrongs, by naming a bird in some obscure or indiginous language, or any other language for that matter.

A: English language regularly and continually throughout its history borrows words from other languages, and vast swathes of common bird names incorporate or derive from non-English language, especially those on other continents. You make sound like a few oddballs here and there, but just in the Americas you have Tanager, Elainia, Tinamou, Toucan, Motmot, Flamingo, Jacamar, Grassquit, Macaw, Condor, Parakeet, Junco, Spindalis, Guillemot, etc. Are you seriously proposing we get rid of all of these names?

B: Renaming something due to something which is seen as offensive doesn't necessitate always using another language. And some of these names getting changed already use non-English derived words. Hottentot is derived from dutch...it's no more "English" than Jacana. So why would you have an issue changing it?

 

[Kirk Roth]

Because this is supposed to be a list of common 'English' names, not a mosaic of languages that people feel are 'evocative', as I've heard said a few times. My gripe is not the name changes per se but the useage of more and more non English names.

I don't care what continent birds are on, this is supposed to be an English language list and to justify the proliferation of foreign words that are more and more regularly proposed, by pointing to the odd species such as Jacana, is in my view, unjustifiable. I have no issue with the removal of honorific names for whatever reason, I believe that the name of a bird should be at least, a little descriptive in terms of appearance or habit.

You're not righting any historical wrongs, by naming a bird in some obscure or indiginous language, or any other language for that matter.

This is an entirely different issue, however - the natural tendency of language to change. "Jacana" is now an English word - it has been adopted. (Much like the word "English" itself has been adapted/adopted from languages from the Jutland area.)

Unless the argument is that "Hottentot" is somehow the English word for Khoisan, I think this is addressing a different concern - namely the perpetuation of an offensive word. The geographic history of the word or its replacement is irrelevant to that point.

 

[Kirk Roth]

Trou, hem, sorry, true. But, you know what I mean, in short.

I would imagine that all of this talk of English-language exceptionalism might seem pretty quaint considering that 30% of the language is derived from French!

3

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

I would imagine that all of this talk of English-language exceptionalism might seem pretty quaint considering that 30% of the language is derived from French!

3

Ha ha XD but almost all languages ​​borrow words from elsewhere, even in zoology and especially in ornithology

 

[Andy Adcock]

I would imagine that all of this talk of English-language exceptionalism might seem pretty quaint considering that 30% of the language is derived from French!

3

Ah an American, lecturing us on the English language, who was it that said, The UK and US are two Nations, divided by a common language'.

I really don't see your standpoint on this at all, using ancient history to slip in another word that no one, apart from the person doing the naming, knows the meaning of.

 

[Dave Boyle]

[I really don't see your standpoint on this at all, using ancient history to slip in another word that no one, apart from the person doing the naming, knows the meaning of.[/QUOTE]

Like the old Dutch word Hottentot?

 

[Andy Adcock]

[I really don't see your standpoint on this at all, using ancient history to slip in another word that no one, apart from the person doing the naming, knows the meaning of.

Like the old Dutch word Hottentot?[/QUOTE]

There are a few, long established names which are in a very small minority. My problem is the addition of a whole raft, of potential new ones, many are patronising attempts salve the wounds of historical injustices.

Whether it's colonial, honorifics (don't really care about this one) or using a name, written in another language, make no mistake, there is politics behind this, Liberalism seem to predominate in some areas, science and teaching are two examples.

It's amazing isn't it, to realise that the liberal movement is largely rejected by the voting public, World over, yet they remain so influential in many areas.

 

[andrew147]

That you give strictly English names to birds is not problematic if you don't give the same name to species or families that are not related (e.g. Flycatchers, Warbler, Bunting, Wren , Tit etc. ) That we maintain stability, I understand, but it must be consistent with current taxonomy and phylogeny and giving identical names for unrelated species make nonsense.


That's why I don't really like English bird name, not because I'm French, but because I find them vague, confusing and misleading. From there, you can hate me
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

That must be wonderful to have common names aligned with scientific evidence/common sense. Believe me, plenty of native English speakers wish that there weren't quite so many 'warblers' or 'flycatchers' too!

How widespread is the habit of applying the same common name to unrelated bird groups?

I thought it may just be a peculiarity of English-speaking nations but German fink and sänger also seem to be applied/retained across unrelated groups.

 

[Andy Adcock]

That must be wonderful to have common names aligned with scientific evidence/common sense. Believe me, plenty of native English speakers wish that there weren't quite so many 'warblers' or 'flycatchers' too!

How widespread is the habit of applying the same common name to unrelated bird groups?

I thought it may just be a peculiarity of English-speaking nations but German fink and sänger also seem to be applied/retained across unrelated groups.

Are these people actually birders or scientists with a fetish for order....

Regarding eponyms, is it being suggested that they too, will be removed from the affected species scientific name too?

 

[Dave Boyle]

When's your cut off though Andy for what's allowed to be entered in to the English language & how long until a 'foreign' word becomes English enough for you to accept? This has all been done before but you're happy enough I guess with Jacana & Trogon & Pitta & Kiwi & Lammergeir etc etc etc

I agree with you on the honorifics, I like them & they add some history to a bird name

The 'english' name of some carex species in New Zealand contain probably the most universally recognised racially repugnant word, would you want to keep that to thwart some liberal agenda? Obviously not but because you don't find a word offensive doesn't mean other people don't & I can't see an issue with changing a Dutch word for a group of people that has become offensive to them & not use the word they called themselves all along, or is Dutch less foreign than an indigenous South African language?

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Let AOU-NACC change (for example) the Common/Vernacular name of the (not very) Bald Eagle Haliaeetus leucocephalus

Bald Kite ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

 

[Andy Adcock]

When's your cut off though Andy for what's allowed to be entered in to the English language & how long until a 'foreign' word becomes English enough for you to accept? This has all been done before but you're happy enough I guess with Jacana & Trogon & Pitta & Kiwi & Lammergeir etc etc etc

I agree with you on the honorifics, I like them & they add some history to a bird name

The 'english' name of some carex species in New Zealand contain probably the most universally recognised racially repugnant word, would you want to keep that to thwart some liberal agenda? Obviously not but because you don't find a word offensive doesn't mean other people don't & I can't see an issue with changing a Dutch word for a group of people that has become offensive to them & not use the word they called themselves all along, or is Dutch less foreign than an indigenous South African language?

Yep, they can stay, I just don't want anymore!

By all means use an indiginous word but translate it in to English for the 'English' list, simple.

 

[Andy Adcock]

Name Middle English, from Old English nama, noma (noun), of Germanic origin; akin/related to German Name, from Old High German namo (name), and Dutch naam, from a root shared by Latin nomen and Greek onoma, onyma.

Word Middle English, from Old English, akin/related to Old High German wort and Dutch woord, from an Indo-European root shared by Latin verbum (word), compare with the Greek eirein (to say, speak), or Hittite weriya- (to call, name).

Bird Middle English brid, bird, from Old English bridd, of unknown origin.

Neither one is originally truly, very English.

Let's change 'em all! Let's abandon the Old Imperial English, and the History of Ornithology, all together.

Let AOU-NACC change (for example) the Common/Vernacular name of the (not very) Bald Eagle Haliaeetus leucocephalus into P'kal-qké, or the Wesern Red-tailed Hawk Buteo jamaicensis calurus into Tsēl-tsēl-tshi-mü, ... and onwards. The latter names are truly all American, from the Selish people/tribe of today's Western Montana. Or into similar, equivalent names, arbitrary, of preference.

Surely, after such a move, after such an improvement, everyone would be more content, all happier!?



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I have already made a similar comment somewhere that the way this is heading, all European, boreal species, should have Viking names.

At which point do we have to stop calling it an 'English' list?

 

[Andy Adcock]

When's your cut off though Andy for what's allowed to be entered in to the English language & how long until a 'foreign' word becomes English enough for you to accept? This has all been done before but you're happy enough I guess with Jacana & Trogon & Pitta & Kiwi & Lammergeir etc etc etc

I agree with you on the honorifics, I like them & they add some history to a bird name

The 'english' name of some carex species in New Zealand contain probably the most universally recognised racially repugnant word, would you want to keep that to thwart some liberal agenda? Obviously not but because you don't find a word offensive doesn't mean other people don't & I can't see an issue with changing a Dutch word for a group of people that has become offensive to them & not use the word they called themselves all along, or is Dutch less foreign than an indigenous South African language?

Struggling to understand which one you mean Dave?

I agree with offensive name changes, I wonder though, how many of the 'offended', are even aware of the name of this bird but let it's replacement be in English at least, is that too much to ask?

 

[Mysticete]

Name Middle English, from Old English nama, noma (noun), of Germanic origin; akin/related to German Name, from Old High German namo (name), and Dutch naam, from a root shared by Latin nomen and Greek onoma, onyma.

Word Middle English, from Old English, akin/related to Old High German wort and Dutch woord, from an Indo-European root shared by Latin verbum (word), compare with the Greek eirein (to say, speak), or Hittite weriya- (to call, name).

Bird Middle English brid, bird, from Old English bridd, of unknown origin.

Neither one is originally truly, very English.

Let's change 'em all! Let's abandon the Old Imperial English, and the History of Ornithology, all together.

Let AOU-NACC change (for example) the Common/Vernacular name of the (not very) Bald Eagle Haliaeetus leucocephalus into P'kal-qké, or the Western Red-tailed Hawk Buteo jamaicensis calurus into Tsēl-tsēl-tshi-mü, ... and onwards. The latter names are truly all American, from the Selish people/tribe of today's Western Montana. Or into similar, equivalent names, arbitrary, of preference.

Surely, after such a move, after such an improvement, everyone would be more content, all happier!?



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Ah yes, because changing a small handful of bird names which either include racist slurs or commemorate less than savory people is obviously the same as changing all English names to indigenous ones.

That is the slipperiest slippy slope argument I think I have seen in awhile.