Swarovski ATX 95 vs Kowa Prominar TSN 883 (1 Viewer)

george-spiridakis · Apr 15, 2016

Hi all,

i would like to ask your opinions regarding the mentioned scopes.

At the moment i have the older ATS 80 HD (20-60x eyepiece). I am thinking of an upgrade.

Optically, and without the extra magnification advantage of the Swaro with the 30-70x eyepiece, the Kowa with the 25-60x eyepiece, which one is better?

The basic criterion is the IQ at full magnification (60x), is one of the two clearly better?
Second question will be about construction. I know Swaro's construction is very good, excellent i would say, what about the Kowa? Is there something that shuld worry me about it?

I 've compared the Kowa with my current one, and it was better at full magnification. An other advantage was the dual focus system and last it was significantly lighter.
Kowa is significantly cheaper too.

I would appreciate your opinions, especially if you have personal experience.

George

jring · Apr 15, 2016

Hi,

first I have to say that unfortunately I haven't yet used the Kowa and only had some quick peeks through a fellow birders ATX95 in not very challenging lighting (it was great there).

From reviews I'd say both are optically the best currently available this side of astro scopes. The difference is the handling and finish where Swaro wins and the availability of the 1.6x extender for the Kowa. The question whether one likes the Swaro or the Kowa focusser better is probably a matter of taste.
Regarding quality - I think I read on birdforum some isolated embarassing stories on both models (ATXen fogging up and Kowa EPs with black spots on the lenses) - iirc all were promptly handled under warranty but of course the Swaro warranty is the stuff legends are made of (can you say chewing toy included ;-)

If I was in the market for a new scope money no object, I'd probably have a very close look at both and baring any lemons probably get the Kowa plus extender.

Joachim

mayoayo · Apr 17, 2016

Have you tried the 25-50x zoom in your current scope...?...your scope is an extraordinary instrument and the wide zoom might make the whole view worth to wait a while and see what the market has to offer,if anything at all,in the near future...

Cosme · Apr 18, 2016

To me the kowa.

I dont think the swa optically outperforms it to justify the extra weight and money.

Aside the 1.6x kowa can fit the docter 12.5, i dont know if the swa can ...

DRodrigues · Apr 19, 2016

george-spiridakis said:
Hi all,

Optically, and without the extra magnification advantage of the Swaro with the 30-70x eyepiece, the Kowa with the 25-60x eyepiece, which one is better?

The basic criterion is the IQ at full magnification (60x), is one of the two clearly better?
George

These 2 questions are conflicting a bit... The main advantage of the Swaro is to allow higher mags. If you search at the Swaro forum you will find Kimmo's review that the Swato 95 has higher resolution than the Kowa, both at 60x.
For higher magnifications/resolutions, the Kowa has the advantage of the 1.6x extender and that can receive astronomical eyepieces - see http://www.pt-ducks.com/cr-telescopes.htm

jring · Apr 20, 2016

Hi David,

yes, it's kinda strange that the ATX95 with more aperture and thus better resolving power is limited to 70x and the Kowa 883/4 with a slightly lower aperture can be pushed 96x with the extender.

Although sb. stacked two 1.6 extenders behind a Kowa for 153x and the images look quite usable... They're certainly just fine with one extender...

https://twitter.com/steveblain/status/700223016387682304

Thanks to user Ratal digging up the link and posting it into the 1.6 extender thread...

Joachim

DRodrigues · Apr 29, 2016

Joachim,
You have to be patient with Swaro...
I first showed how to use a barlow cell with a zoom on a spotting scope. Few years latter Leica came with the 1.8x extender. Kowa took some more years to release their extender. I hope Swaro will release some option in order the X95 can get higher mags - I gave them a pair of suggestions at http://www.pt-ducks.com/cr-telescopes.htm#Test_of_my_present_preferred_cr-telescopes... o

Remember also that Leica released the 25-50x wide zoom. Few months latter Swaro released a similar zoom. Few years latter Swaro released the X line with the ocular unit with 2.4x zoom. Only after some more years Kowa released the 2.4x wide zoom...

Vespobuteo · Apr 29, 2016

go for the scope that handles and feels the best, focuser, weight etc.
don't worry about the optics, they are both very good.

george-spiridakis · Apr 30, 2016

DRodrigues said:
These 2 questions are conflicting a bit... The main advantage of the Swaro is to allow higher mags. If you search at the Swaro forum you will find Kimmo's review that the Swato 95 has higher resolution than the Kowa, both at 60x.
For higher magnifications/resolutions, the Kowa has the advantage of the 1.6x extender and that can receive astronomical eyepieces - see http://www.pt-ducks.com/cr-telescopes.htm

Of course the Swaro has the advantage of 70x compared to the 60x of Kowa. But in true world if the IQ degrades more on the Swaro from one point and after (let's say at 50x or 60x) then the Kowa will be better despite the less magnification.
By the way, i didn't know about the existence of an extender for the Kowa which is something nice to use, at least occasionally.

Thanks for your comment.

george-spiridakis · Apr 30, 2016

Thank you all for your comments.

I know that both options will be better than my current, but i will like to get the best of the two since i am going to spent so much money.

Recently i had the chance to have a look through a Swaro ATX 85 or 80 and compare it to mine (ATS 80 HD).
The ATX was noticeably better at higher magnifications (especially at 60x). So i guess the 95 will be at least as good with more light gathering of course and the higher magnification is a very important advantage as well.

I am not still sure which one should i get though, and there is nowhere i can see and test both before take a final decision.

rosbifs · Apr 30, 2016

I have only tried the Swaro and have to say it was amazing (weight aside). The detail I could see at distance was pretty unbelievable. I don't doubt that the Kowa is also very good indeed though leaving you a very difficult choice. However, if I was spending 3000€ on a scope I would have to test both.
Surely you can get a cheap flight somewhere to test them - it would be worth it as you would then have the best scope for YOU - its something you could live with for 30 years!

mwe2121 · Jun 7, 2016

I know I am a little late to the discussion but I was able to compare both the Kowa TSN-883 with the 25-60 eyepiece (I own it) and the Swaro 95mm last week while I was in Yellowstone National Park. I had them setup side-by-side while viewing the Junction Butte wolf pack den. I was able to use both of them during early morning light and at sunset were viewing conditions where challenging due to lighting and heatwaves. Both scopes feel very solid and obviously the swaro is heavier.

The view through either of them is impressive. I could resolve a little more detail out of the swaro and it was a tad bit brighter, it might provide a couple additional minutes of viewing in the morning and at night. However, I feel that heat waves largely cancel out any advantages of the bigger and more expensive swaro. The field of view is impressive on both and both have a very flat field as well. The only negative thing I can say about the swaro is that it appeared to have more chromatic abbreviation then the Kowa which essentially has none. This could be due to sample differences however.

Which one would I get if money was no option? I don't know, I like the dual focus mechanism of the kowa, it's lighter weight and smaller size, and lack of chromatic abbreviation. The Swaro is brighter, resolves more detail, scope body is armored and has more reach compared to the Kowa. So I think a lot of the decision comes down to personal preference and what looks best to your eye. Chromatic abbreviation bothers me so I would more than likely choose the kowa again but only you can decide.

rosbifs · Jun 7, 2016

Tested the Kowa last week or so and tend to agree with mwe2121 (albeit that my test wasn't side by side). It comes down to your personal preference, potential use and budget. I think if I was hiking a fair bit the Swaro would stay in the car more than the Kowa.

Optically, the Kowa was amazing too......

jring · Jun 7, 2016

Hi,

thanks for the comparison!

I am not astonished about the result - Kowa knows why they use CaF2 in their top instruments (which also happen to have the fastest focal ratio f5.8) - an ED glass doublet just won't cut it any more CA wise in an instrument that fast - a doublet with fluorite is not perfect either, but better.
In a perfect world one would use a triplet or quadruplet in this situation, but that is a bit heavier (and pricier, although at the price of an ATX95 you could buy a top level astro APO refractor of comparable aperture like the Takahashi "BabyQ" FSQ85ED with an ED quadruplet objective with some money left for eyepieces - unfortunately the baby is rather heavy at 9 pounds)

It's also common that a smaller aperture instrument works better in good light and bad seeing conditions - although hopefully one does not have those too often...

Joachim

kabsetz · Jun 7, 2016

Joachim,

Your last point about smaller aperture instruments working better in good light and bad seeing conditions is a commonly held and often repeated opinion but in my view mistaken.

Having tested literally dozens of scopes, I have seen that scope samples that have high aberrations suffer relatively more from bad seeing conditions than those that have low aberrations. A low-aberration big scope beats a low-aberration small scope in bad seeing, but a low-aberration small scope can beat a high-aberration large scope, especially by attaining its optimum focus more decisively. It is easier to manufacture a small scope with low aberrations and quality standards have not always been very high even for top-name scopes. Therefore many people have had the experience that small scopes have an advantage in poor seeing, but this is not due to their smaller size but their "cleaner" image due to lower aberrations. As soon as your reference is a bigger scope with equally clean image, you see the situation reversing.

Kimmo

jring · Jun 7, 2016

Hi Kimmo,

although from what I understood, it's not really an opinion but the state of current knowledge on the topic... for a more formal deduction see for example Vladimir Sacek, Notes on Amateur Telescope Optics, Chapter 5.1 Air-medium errors and especially 5.1.3 Seeing and aperture.

It's available on the web under http://www.telescope-optics.net/

The question is, if the difference between 88 and 95mm for 883 vs ATX95 is large enough to be visible though. For 60 vs. a 100mm in bad seing I'm confident that it will be visible.

But I will try to arrange a test - I just have to convince a friend to spend a hot summer sunday afternoon with cool beer (but no BBQ due to the optics) on my balcony watching the herons and cormorants over the river and he absolutely needs to bring his 130mm Takahashi APO for that ;-)
My cheap and cheerful chinese 80mm ED doublet will be a worthy opponent since it certainly has more aberrations than the Tak...

Regards,

Joachim

mwe2121 · Jun 8, 2016

I wouldn't say the Swaro was worse than the Kowa when viewing through heatwaves, the heatwaves just acted as an equalizer. The owner of the swaro and myself couldn't tell a difference between the two scopes. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLqye2_aHXbHnonXeHM7_fQ I have videos taken through my scope posted here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAuk7tuQajU this video of the junction butte den was taken around 9 in the morning but the heatwaves had already started. The den was a little over a mile away. Keep in mind the view through the scope with your eye is clearer and brighter than what it appears to be through the camera.

kabsetz · Jun 8, 2016

Joachim,

I'm actually not disputing the science, but rather the conclusions drawn from it when applied to daytime viewing. The calculated examples in 5.3.1 in Telescope-optics show image degradation as reduction of Strehl ratio, i.e. how close to theoretically perfect for the given aperture does the image get. Since resolving power increases linearly with aperture, 100mm aperture with .60 Strehl has higher resolving power than 50mm aperture with 1.0 Strehl. If (and this is typically the case with birding scopes in daylight viewing) we keep the magnification down to figures where the eye is not yet able to discern Airy disks, the added resolving power of a bigger scope of equally low optical aberrations will have a greater effect on actual visual performance than the relatively greater impact of atmospherics.

This is something I have repeatedly seen in the field once having access to optically first-rate large aperture spotting scopes.

Kimmo

dannat · Jul 1, 2016

also late to the discussion but one of the CN memebrs tested both [he has 2 x swaro units for ems binocular] he said the kowa easily takes 100x +, but the swaro cannot -he has even had the jowa with extender & astro eyepieces over 200x & image is still ok

safaridreaming · Jul 5, 2016

dannat said:
also late to the discussion but one of the CN memebrs tested both [he has 2 x swaro units for ems binocular] he said the kowa easily takes 100x +, but the swaro cannot -he has even had the jowa with extender & astro eyepieces over 200x & image is still ok

Yeah that was very interesting insight into the Kowa's capabilities... be interesting to see if that sentiment stays the same with some real wold use, although i'm not sure how practical the setup on the Kowa would be for field use..

cheers
Jeelan

Swarovski ATX 95 vs Kowa Prominar TSN 883 (1 Viewer)

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