Scottish Independence (1 Viewer)

Farnboro John · Sep 12, 2014

Paul Chapman said:
John

No criticism intended (despite being called a lister rather than a real birder ). I would only have seen Bee-eater in Wales in Britain if it were not for a second two miles off patch and a subsequent sighting on patch.

I suspect that your English list at 500+ is unusual. Maybe not as low as a half a dozen individuals (which I said last night) but I'd be astonished if it was as high as twenty. You will need to have been twitching consistently for 30 years and going for repeats.

All the best

Well, I have of course, the first real twitch I remember going on was December 1983: but there are plenty of others who have been going for longer and either live in more rarity-rich areas or go for more than one individual of a species if it won't break the bank. Or do year lists (I've broken 300 8 times and obviously gone for the nearest rares). Or more than one county list? The only sub-British Isles lists I have consciously worked on are Isles of Scilly (dead on 300 at the moment) and local patch (10 mile radius of home - long story) but I'm not sure of the current total for that one.

I don't do BUBO any more than I do 400 Club. I do know Lee's lists are incomplete. It sounds like BUBO is a lot less useful as a measure of the twitching community even than them. Maybe BUBO should put a list of twitchers up asking for submissions, like BBRC's one of birds they know of that haven't been submitted....

Cheers

John

angusmcoatup · Sep 12, 2014

Andy Hurley said:
It also depends on which areas are asked, which is not stated. If you asked 1000 people in Aberdeen, you will get the majority saying no. If you asked 1000 people in the Highlands, you will get a majority saying yes. Polls selected by pro government media will reflect the no vote, as polls carried out by pro indy media will reflect a yes vote. It also depends on age. Most folk of 55 according to some polls are voting no. I personally don't see how the can get accurate figures without a bigger sample. To me its just lies, damn lies and statistics. The safe way is to wait and see on the day.

I was in Inverness a couple of weeks ago discussing the referendum with friends aged between 30 - 40 , all of whom were Yes. The following night at a silver anniversary do (lots of 55 +) in Perth the consensus was generally No. I've little faith in the polls to.

wolfbirder · Sep 12, 2014

angusmcoatup said:
I was in Inverness a couple of weeks ago discussing the referendum with friends aged between 30 - 40 , all of whom were Yes. The following night at a silver anniversary do (lots of 55 +) in Perth the consensus was generally No. I've little faith in the polls to.

You expect younger people to vote yes and the older to vote no . I would think there would be a similar age breakdown if English were asked . Perfectly normal .

Andy Hurley · Sep 12, 2014

wolfbirder said:
You expect younger people to vote yes and the older to vote no . I would think there would be a similar age breakdown if English were asked . Perfectly normal .

Absolutely, the older you are the less likely you'll want big changes in your life, but then again, a lot of people go abroad to live in sunnier climes when they retire and thats a pretty major change.

wolfbirder · Sep 12, 2014

Its certainly exciting, whatever happens!!

Stonefaction · Sep 12, 2014

Wolfbirder, considering what is at stake it has been an exceptionally mild-mannered campaign (so far at least - touch wood!). However, there is an Orange Order march in support of the No campaign tomorrow in Edinburgh and I suspect the No side will have something 'big' planned for the media to go to town on with the OO being the "poor victims". I really, really hope I'm wrong.

As for splits in the demographics, there is probably a bigger split down economic lines than any other likely determining factor in the referendum with I suspect the majority of the "well off" voting No (I'm alright, Jock!) and the majority of the "less well off" voting Yes. Ironically for Westminster it could be their own policies which have kept large swathes of Scotland in actual and relative poverty that may prove to be the determining factor in the referendum (unless they've managed to rig the postal vote - something which Labour at least has a track record of benefiting from in suspected cases in Scotland and England).

There are lots of older people who voted YES to devolution in 1979 (only for the dead and no longer resident voters still on the electoral roll which wasn't up to date, being counted as Nos - meaning that despite a win for YES devolution did not happen until almost 20 years later) who still have long memories of the false promises made then - and being repeated now, as in 1997. There are plenty in the older age bracket still voting YES. The ones who get their information from the newspapers (only one Sunday paper in support of independence and no dailys) and the TV (the BBC are no longer even trying to appear impartial) are the ones most likely to believe the scare stories. It is those that the media are targeting and it has certainly been "scare a granny for the No campaign" week up here.

We live in interesting times......

Paul Chapman · Sep 12, 2014

Stonefaction - an interesting perspective which possibly does not mirror everyone's experiences:-

https://mobile.twitter.com/docmartin2mc/status/505117119806074880

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28986714

But back to the subject of birds - I get an English list of 569 being 597 BOU less 21 from Scotland only - I think - Scottish Crosshill, Ptarmigan, Capercallie, White-winged Scoter, Barrow's Goldeneye, Ascension Frigatebird, Snowy Egret, Mourning Dove, Long-tailed Shrike, White-faced Storm-petrel, Great Auk, Purple Martin, Thick-billed Warbler, Olive-tree Warbler, Rufous-tailed Robin, Citril Finch, Evening Grosbeak, Cretzschmar's Bunting, Chestnut-eared Bunting, Tennessee Warbler and Cape May Warbler; 4 from Wales only - Grey Catbird, Moussier's Redstart, Summer Tanager and Indigo Bunting; and 3 from Scotland and Wales - Grey-tailed Tattler, Blackburnian Warbler and Yellow Warbler.

I doubt Ptarmigan and Great Auk would get on an English list on examination of claimed historic records.

All the best

Nutcracker · Sep 12, 2014

Paul Chapman said:
I doubt ... Great Auk would get on an English list on examination of claimed historic records.

Farne Islands, Northumbs: specimen collected between 1763-1767. This record has a long history of acceptance (e.g. Hancock 1874, Bolam 1912) even though the specimen itself no longer survives.

There are also several 9th-10th century bone specimens from archaeological digs on Holy Island.

Paul Chapman · Sep 12, 2014

Thanks - noted.

Saunders (1889) referred simply to Papa Westra, St Kilda and Waterford Harbour as the only British and Irish specimens but it did refer to remains in 'some old sea-caves in Durham'.

570 it is!

All the best

Paul

PS Just checked the third edition - Saunders and Clarke (1927) which states:- 'Wallace, in his 'History and Antiquities of Northumberland' (1769), mentions (p. 361) that a Penguin [doubtless a Great Auk] was taken a few years ago in the Island of Farne, and became tame and familiar.' I suppose we'll only find out if there is a post-independence evaluation on its acceptability!

McMadd · Sep 13, 2014

Finally some sense...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6vDzf-wSbk

Yrs aye
McM

wolfbirder · Sep 13, 2014

Stonefaction said:
Wolfbirder, considering what is at stake it has been an exceptionally mild-mannered campaign (so far at least - touch wood!). However, there is an Orange Order march in support of the No campaign tomorrow in Edinburgh and I suspect the No side will have something 'big' planned for the media to go to town on with the OO being the "poor victims". I really, really hope I'm wrong.

As for splits in the demographics, there is probably a bigger split down economic lines than any other likely determining factor in the referendum with I suspect the majority of the "well off" voting No (I'm alright, Jock!) and the majority of the "less well off" voting Yes. Ironically for Westminster it could be their own policies which have kept large swathes of Scotland in actual and relative poverty that may prove to be the determining factor in the referendum (unless they've managed to rig the postal vote - something which Labour at least has a track record of benefiting from in suspected cases in Scotland and England).

There are lots of older people who voted YES to devolution in 1979 (only for the dead and no longer resident voters still on the electoral roll which wasn't up to date, being counted as Nos - meaning that despite a win for YES devolution did not happen until almost 20 years later) who still have long memories of the false promises made then - and being repeated now, as in 1997. There are plenty in the older age bracket still voting YES. The ones who get their information from the newspapers (only one Sunday paper in support of independence and no dailys) and the TV (the BBC are no longer even trying to appear impartial) are the ones most likely to believe the scare stories. It is those that the media are targeting and it has certainly been "scare a granny for the No campaign" week up here.

We live in interesting times......

I have noticed the lack of impartiality in recent weeks within the national media, and I do sympathise and empathise, in terms of politicals. Without trying to inflame anyone, a lot of people north of Watford Gap (and indeed south of it, in inner London) will feel they are largely unrepresented by the politicians. So i understand how people struggle in recent times at least, to see any benefit of being in the union of the UK. That on top of our meddling in areas of the world which is clearly to do with the control of oil in the main.

It just saddens me personally that the union may be broken, but understand why Scots are looking at all aspects in assessing their options. As I say it is sad from this perspective, as it embitters people on both sides, I hope things settle whatever the outcome.

Bismarck Honeyeater · Sep 13, 2014

Paul Chapman said:
Stonefaction - an interesting perspective which possibly does not mirror everyone's experiences:-

https://mobile.twitter.com/docmartin2mc/status/505117119806074880

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28986714

But back to the subject of birds - I get an English list of 569 being 597 BOU less 21 from Scotland only - I think - Scottish Crosshill, Ptarmigan, Capercallie, White-winged Scoter, Barrow's Goldeneye, Ascension Frigatebird, Snowy Egret, Mourning Dove, Long-tailed Shrike, White-faced Storm-petrel, Great Auk, Purple Martin, Thick-billed Warbler, Olive-tree Warbler, Rufous-tailed Robin, Citril Finch, Evening Grosbeak, Cretzschmar's Bunting, Chestnut-eared Bunting, Tennessee Warbler and Cape May Warbler; 4 from Wales only - Grey Catbird, Moussier's Redstart, Summer Tanager and Indigo Bunting; and 3 from Scotland and Wales - Grey-tailed Tattler, Blackburnian Warbler and Yellow Warbler.

I doubt Ptarmigan and Great Auk would get on an English list on examination of claimed historic records.

All the best

Rufous-tailed Robin in Norfolk, so unless they want independence too, that's 571

Stonefaction · Sep 13, 2014

Stonefaction - an interesting perspective which possibly does not mirror everyone's experiences:-

https://mobile.twitter.com/docmartin...17119806074880

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-28986714

Visit any comments section on any of the British media outlets and you will see racist bile spewed northwards aimed at Scots from English people. In both cases it is wrong and at least up here, it is condemned by the vast majority - it is interesting to see that the moderators on the press sites allow it to stand, when they have the power to delete and censor. I suspect that says something about the morals of the press.

As much as some would like or portray this to be a campaign along Scots vs English lines, it is not (although there are a minority who go down that line). Some of the press try very hard to push the anti-English angle (Daily Mail surprise, surprise), as we have seen up here the media in the UK is broken as well and thinks nothing of churning out full-on lies when it suits their agenda.

I have noticed the lack of impartiality in recent weeks within the national media, and I do sympathise and empathise, in terms of politicals. Without trying to inflame anyone, a lot of people north of Watford Gap (and indeed south of it, in inner London) will feel they are largely unrepresented by the politicians. So i understand how people struggle in recent times at least, to see any benefit of being in the union of the UK. That on top of our meddling in areas of the world which is clearly to do with the control of oil in the main.

It just saddens me personally that the union may be broken, but understand why Scots are looking at all aspects in assessing their options. As I say it is sad from this perspective, as it embitters people on both sides, I hope things settle whatever the outcome.

Good post. I'm off out birding now....

Bismarck Honeyeater · Sep 13, 2014

Of that 571, I reckon c.48 have been effectively untwitchable, if you connected/found any of them you are very fortunate. Brings us down to theoretical Max of 523. Surely no one has got everything that could be twitched, a hit rate in the mid 90% would be more likely, no?

Paul Chapman · Sep 13, 2014

BH - your new theoretical maximum of 523 is closer to mine. I don't think you can apply a percentage to an overall figure. More the case of working out how many of those every twitcher on say 530 for Britain will have seen and working out any optional additions. (I think I did quite well with the list total as it was done simply using a highlighter and my personal recollection of records. Interesting that I'd obliterated my Rufous-tailed Robin dip from my memory.)

Stonefaction - my comment was simply because of yours that it had been a 'mild-mannered campaign'. Like most south of the border I had completely ignored it. I've now paid some attention because of this thread and the views of my Scottish Finance and HR Directors. The view that I have reached is that the union is now doomed and it is just a case of timing. Our daft broken financial model punishes normal people for uncertainty so we may as well all take the pain sooner rather than later. I ignore the papers but when I see a tweet from someone I know to be intelligent and mild-mannered then I place a significant amount of weight upon it. (I doubt the tweeter would consider me to be as measured! I've read Scottish papers after a Scottish victory at Murrayfield so I know that both sets are as bad as one another.)

All the best to you - no 'formal' birding today but I should get some good red kite views from the train on the way to the football

Capercaillie71 · Sep 13, 2014

As someone who was once (many years ago) called a 'f***ing English b*****d' by a drunken Glaswegian at Loch Morlich campsite (I am Scottish born to English parents and grew up in England) I utterly condemn any abusive behaviour. However, I have to agree with Stonefaction that there is very, very little of this apparent in the referendum campaign and what little there is comes from both sides (the media tends to ignore any from the No side). Funnily enough I've sometimes noticed that some of the strongest anti-English views come from no voters. There was an interesting story a week or two back about a Yes campaigner (who was English) being told by a no voter that they had no right to tell Scots how to vote because she was English.

The truth is the Yes campaign is not really about nationalism and certainly isn't about disliking the English, it is about democracy. This article sums it up pretty well in my view:

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/13/british-for-yes/

Capercaillie71 · Sep 13, 2014

On lighter note, I enjoyed this welcome that was given to the Labour shadow cabinet that travelled up from London to march through central Glasgow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA

Birdspotter · Sep 13, 2014

Capercaillie71 said:
On lighter note, I enjoyed this welcome that was given to the Labour shadow cabinet that travelled up from London to march through central Glasgow:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA

Yes that made me laugh...Welcome to Glaswegian humour!

Regarding numpties taking it too far it nearly kicked off in my local last night between two blokes who were discussing the referendum....funny thing was though both are English!!

Paul Chapman · Sep 13, 2014

Capercaillie71

I get risk-taking idealism but the conflation of the failings highlighted in the article with 'Westminster' falls short in my view. The failings are far more deep-rooted and I have seen no credible basis to believe that a 'Yes' vote will deliver the utopia suggested. I wish you every success in changing the system but in short order you'll have a different set of despised politicians with their noses in the trough. Their behaviour will be in return for the grace and favour of slightly rejigged money interests and you'll either have a more strained financial basis in which to operate (if my view is correct) or a better financial basis in which to operate (if Alex Salmond is right).

Politicians don't behave in the way I would wish either.

(Any way time to go into the ground.)

All the best

Andy Hurley · Sep 13, 2014

Birdspotter said:
Yes that made me laugh...Welcome to Glaswegian humour!

Regarding numpties taking it too far it nearly kicked off in my local last night between two blokes who were discussing the referendum....funny thing was though both are English!!

Probably rent a mob so the Westminster propaganda machine can come up with more lies about marauding Scots using strongarm tactics to influence the vote

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