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Is birding secondary to Optical Nirvana? (1 Viewer)

OH so you want to know my whole philosophy of life eh? No problem!


In a larger sense, bird study is a window into the terrestrial part of the whole sphere of nature, which stretches to the edge of the universe and down into the realm of the unseen and small. It is sort of a passion with me, to get an overview, however shallow, of that entire sphere.

I can't go by a body of water without wanting to see into a droplet at high magnification. Do microscopes cost a lot of money, do you think? Does it uh, matter, what kind I get?
Ron

Ronh,I have no problem avoiding that droplet..(I know how many Chupacabras are in that drop)...but I agree with your prior paragraph.
I think your philosophy of life is in that paragraph....and it's much like my own...so may I ask you this? What's the secret of gravity???...Always wanted to know....
 
BTW, the best birder I know uses an old pair of Bushnell 10x50 porro that probably cost $80 new, and no scope. ;)
Just curious kevin.Does this birder feel like his bushnells "get out of the way" ?If you looked through them do you think you would feel the same way?
 
Ardy,
Thanks for introducing me to the exciting world of Chupacabras, or "goat suckers". (That is also another name for the night hawk or night jar, one of my favorite birds, my wife and I go out at sunset on the measatops and watch them fly.)

For this enlightenment, I owe you the secret of gravity. But I don't know it. At least not from a physics direction. Just describing what it does is enough of a challenge for the likes of me.

But I've got this idea, that Gravity is generated by the universe's need to hold itself together. It's like, why does ice float? If it sank, and another layer froze and sank, etc., the pond would fill slam up with ice and all the fish would die. The universe is very smart like that, see? You just have to learn to think like a universe.
Ron
 
Just curious kevin.Does this birder feel like his bushnells "get out of the way" ?If you looked through them do you think you would feel the same way?

I don't know what he think when he uses his bins. He did once say to me that they seemed "pretty good" to him. I left it alone.

Would I be happy using those bins? No.

I mentioned him because he really knows birds and he also doesn't seem to care much about the nuance of the view through his bins. I'm guessing he'd probably be comfortable going birding without bins at all. He knows their calls, their behavior, their habitat, and he's an avid enthusiast and a good teacher. I will also probably never know as much about birds as he does, but I probably enjoy the experience just as much, albeit for slightly different reasons.

Don't misunderstand, I use good equipment myself. I consider my time afield to be precious and want to fully enjoy the experience. I just don't obsess about it and amongst most in my local Audubon it's even sort of considered vulgar to talk about equipment, and I'm OK with that.
 
I
Don't misunderstand, I use good equipment myself. I consider my time afield to be precious and want to fully enjoy the experience. I just don't obsess about it and amongst most in my local Audubon it's even sort of considered vulgar to talk about equipment, and I'm OK with that.

The reason I asked is that for years all I used was a cheap pair of Bushnell Falcons 7x35 and I was compleatly satisfied with them....til someone handed me a pair of Nikon SE's to look through.
 
"Are You Super Anal?"

Ardy,

Many amateur astronomers who use binoculars for stargazing are even more obsessive than you are in testing edge sharpness, which they measure in thousandths of arc seconds. That is, comparing the center field resolution to the resolution 50% out, 60% out, 70% out, 80% out, 90% out.

Although those optics experts also measure specs for accuracy (many bins have different apertures or magnifications or ER figures than advertised - often less than the advertised specs), edge performance seems to be the Great Obsession of binocular astronomers.

So if you are interested in edge performance, I recommend you check out the Cloudy Nights bin forum, and in particular Ed Zarenski's technical reports, which can be found by clicking on the link above the forum for "Technical Reports".

Of late, he and others on the site have been reviewing smaller aperture bins, including those used by birders, so you might find it interesting.

And who knows, you might start using your bins to look at the stars if for no other reason than that stars provide the best test for edge sharpness.

Often to achieve optimal edge performance, FOV is sacrificed, something that most birders would not like. For example, one of the most revered (and expensive) astro bins was the Takahahsi 22x60 fluorite binoculars which has a 2.1* FOV.

But many amateur astronomers use relatively inexpensive big binoculars from China. As long as stars are reasonably pinpoint and the edges are decent, no big deal about the rest since they mount their bins, focus them at infinity, and except for some bright colorful stars and a few planets, most celestial objects lack significant color and appear bluish white through binoculars.

Birders have a whole different set of criteria to measure and obsess about than amateur astronomers, though edge performance seems to be creeping into those criteria of late, with an increasing number of birding binoculars offering sharp edges by using various design approaches - limiting FOV (Brunton Epoch, Minox HG, Celestron Regal LX) or compromising with a moderately wide FOV (Leupold 8x42 Gold Ring, Nikon 8x32 SE) or using field flatterers to achieve a bit wider fields with sharper edges (Nikon EDG, Swaro SV, Meopta B1?).

Compared to hunters, birders are considered "anal" about their optics.

Here's a choice quote from a hunting forum:

"Check out the Birding Forums and Review sights. Those Bird watchers are usually a real good source of info on Binoculars and spotters. They are super Anal."

The original source (post #14):
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=589419

Not all birders are "Super Anal", and with more high end bins being marketed toward hunters, there are more hunters with deep pockets joining the "Super Anal Club".

However, there are BF members who you never see or rarely see on the bin forums, but who post regularly on other BF forums.

They are more interested in IDs, taxonomy and nomenclature, life lists, migrations, conservation, bird feeding, digiscoping and wildlife photography, birding conventions, conferences, and trips, and birding clubs than they are reading about binoculars and testing them.

They are out there birding, using their old trusty Zeiss 7x42 or 10x40 B/GA, 804 Audubon, 8x SE or EII, Leitz 7x35, Bausch & Lomb 8x42 Elite, or maybe something "newer" like the Nikon 8x42 Venturer LX.

Or they might have deep pockets and own the latest and greatest from the Top Three - many birdwatchers are middle aged, which in part explains the trend toward increasingly expensive binoculars, which younger folks can't afford.

I think a lot of these avid birders would find our optics talk as obsessive as I find their interest in IDing and photographing subtle variations in a species (except as a test of a bin's contrast and color depth :).

So there's a range of birders, from one end of the spectrum to the other. On one end, there are those who see bins and scopes merely a means to an end, and on the other extreme are those who see optics as an end into themselves and birds as an interesting target to use and test their bins.

I fall into the Super Anal group. I will have to stop here because I have to take a suppository. :)
 
I suspect that I can be very much like this. I enjoy researching, then getting and using binoculars, though that buying/selling cycle seems to have been slowed significantly since getting my Leica 10x32BNs! Also loving the old Russian optics too.

However I do enjoy watching the birds through the binoculars and trying to ID them, but I don't have a life list or document what I see, I just enjoy watching the birds, finding out what they are, and watching their behaviour. I guess that puts me very much in the ameteur camp but I see it more as a pastime than a hobby. It also give me an excuse to use these optics in anger!
 
Boys and Toys. Girls have clothes and shoes. Some birders (mostly male) have to change there bins everytime a new line come out. Some of it is drive to get the latest fashion in optics round their neck!!:cat::cat:
 
I suspect that I can be very much like this. I enjoy researching, then getting and using binoculars, though that buying/selling cycle seems to have been slowed significantly since getting my Leica 10x32BNs! Also loving the old Russian optics too.

However I do enjoy watching the birds through the binoculars and trying to ID them, but I don't have a life list or document what I see, I just enjoy watching the birds, finding out what they are, and watching their behaviour. I guess that puts me very much in the ameteur camp but I see it more as a pastime than a hobby. It also give me an excuse to use these optics in anger!

the minor difference in those fantastic optics really poked my curiosity, just like birding.
 
I do enjoy watching the birds through the binoculars and trying to ID them, but I don't have a life list or document what I see, I just enjoy watching the birds, finding out what they are, and watching their behaviour. I guess that puts me very much in the ameteur camp....
On the contrary, Sammy, I think it puts you in the "real birder" camp. If you lose that interest in simply looking at them and enjoying them, the pursuit is pretty worthless. :t:
 
The reason I asked is that for years all I used was a cheap pair of Bushnell Falcons 7x35 and I was compleatly satisfied with them....til someone handed me a pair of Nikon SE's to look through.

The guy I'm talking about is in his mid sixties and has birded most of those years. Little doubt he's looked through many other's bins in those years, and certainly many other's spotting scopes.

I can't explain why some so value "the view" and others just don't. I also can't explain the person, and I suspect we've all seen this, that has their Swaro ELs or Leica Uvids with a whole season's crud on the lenses. I mean filthy.

That can't be helping the view much.
 
Compared to hunters, birders are considered "anal" about their optics.
I was out birding/walking the dog/fooling about in the snow today, and I met another walker, and we started talking and walked along together (why does snow make people very friendly?). Turns out he lives locally, a German, and used to hunt in Germany (not much to hunt here apart from hybrid deer and pheasant). Anyway, we got talking about optics and boots and jackets and all that male-bonding tool-use stuff, and on the way home we popped into his house ´cos he wanted to give me some catalogues about really cool German neoprene-lined welly-boots (this post is going somewhere) and then he got out his.....Zeiss Victory FL 10x56 binos! I´d never seen a pair, they were incredible! So bright, wide, very easy to hold steady, I had an epiphany. (These Swarovisions I´ve ordered had better be bloody good).

And on the walk we saw buzzards, lapwings, loads of redwings and fieldfares, flock of bullfinches, and a lone BBH gull sitting in the snow that may have been ill.
 
Ardy,

Many amateur astronomers who use binoculars for stargazing are even more obsessive than you are in testing edge sharpness, which they measure in thousandths of arc seconds. That is, comparing the center field resolution to the resolution 50% out, 60% out, 70% out, 80% out, 90% out.

Although those optics experts also measure specs for accuracy (many bins have different apertures or magnifications or ER figures than advertised - often less than the advertised specs), edge performance seems to be the Great Obsession of binocular astronomers.

So if you are interested in edge performance, I recommend you check out the Cloudy Nights bin forum, and in particular Ed Zarenski's technical reports, which can be found by clicking on the link above the forum for "Technical Reports".

Of late, he and others on the site have been reviewing smaller aperture bins, including those used by birders, so you might find it interesting.

And who knows, you might start using your bins to look at the stars if for no other reason than that stars provide the best test for edge sharpness.

Often to achieve optimal edge performance, FOV is sacrificed, something that most birders would not like. For example, one of the most revered (and expensive) astro bins was the Takahahsi 22x60 fluorite binoculars which has a 2.1* FOV.

But many amateur astronomers use relatively inexpensive big binoculars from China. As long as stars are reasonably pinpoint and the edges are decent, no big deal about the rest since they mount their bins, focus them at infinity, and except for some bright colorful stars and a few planets, most celestial objects lack significant color and appear bluish white through binoculars.

Birders have a whole different set of criteria to measure and obsess about than amateur astronomers, though edge performance seems to be creeping into those criteria of late, with an increasing number of birding binoculars offering sharp edges by using various design approaches - limiting FOV (Brunton Epoch, Minox HG, Celestron Regal LX) or compromising with a moderately wide FOV (Leupold 8x42 Gold Ring, Nikon 8x32 SE) or using field flatterers to achieve a bit wider fields with sharper edges (Nikon EDG, Swaro SV, Meopta B1?).

Compared to hunters, birders are considered "anal" about their optics.

Here's a choice quote from a hunting forum:

"Check out the Birding Forums and Review sights. Those Bird watchers are usually a real good source of info on Binoculars and spotters. They are super Anal."

The original source (post #14):
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthread.php?p=589419

Not all birders are "Super Anal", and with more high end bins being marketed toward hunters, there are more hunters with deep pockets joining the "Super Anal Club".

However, there are BF members who you never see or rarely see on the bin forums, but who post regularly on other BF forums.

They are more interested in IDs, taxonomy and nomenclature, life lists, migrations, conservation, bird feeding, digiscoping and wildlife photography, birding conventions, conferences, and trips, and birding clubs than they are reading about binoculars and testing them.

They are out there birding, using their old trusty Zeiss 7x42 or 10x40 B/GA, 804 Audubon, 8x SE or EII, Leitz 7x35, Bausch & Lomb 8x42 Elite, or maybe something "newer" like the Nikon 8x42 Venturer LX.

Or they might have deep pockets and own the latest and greatest from the Top Three - many birdwatchers are middle aged, which in part explains the trend toward increasingly expensive binoculars, which younger folks can't afford.

I think a lot of these avid birders would find our optics talk as obsessive as I find their interest in IDing and photographing subtle variations in a species (except as a test of a bin's contrast and color depth :).

So there's a range of birders, from one end of the spectrum to the other. On one end, there are those who see bins and scopes merely a means to an end, and on the other extreme are those who see optics as an end into themselves and birds as an interesting target to use and test their bins.

I fall into the Super Anal group. I will have to stop here because I have to take a suppository. :)


Nice writeup Brock, I hope you are feeling better now ! o:D

Jerry
 
On the contrary, Sammy, I think it puts you in the "real birder" camp. If you lose that interest in simply looking at them and enjoying them, the pursuit is pretty worthless. :t:

Cheers, I'm hoping to get out to my local reserve once the weather is a bit less trecherous and when not at work, not been out birding in a while now!
 
So there's a range of birders, from one end of the spectrum to the other. On one end, there are those who see bins and scopes merely a means to an end, and on the other extreme are those who see optics as an end into themselves and birds as an interesting target to use and test their bins.

I fall into the Super Anal group. I will have to stop here because I have to take a suppository. :)

Brock,

Without spending a ton of money for them, which appears a concern you have, I suggest you take a look at the ZRS or the EO Sky King, the latter appears to be the former with dielectric prism coating. While the edge sharpness is not perfect, it is at least as good as, if not a lot better than many far more expensive binoculars. What you don't get is an expansive fov, but it is certainly not restrictive, IMHO. You do get a very good image for the price and pretty darn good edge performance. The ZRS has a warmer color bias than the EO variant.
 
No matter how good the new (neu?) Swarovskis are, for me they will be Swear-offskis. No more plunges.....I've taken two plunges the last 18mo and that sorta thing hasta be stopped. So the new ELs will hafta stay at the Swarovski store.....for now.

And since the subject came up, I, too, use a giant Chinese bino (Garrett 20x80 TWP-CF), but more for terrestrial than cosmological viewing. It's the best of that size (I've tried 3 others, none of which were keepers), and being both center focus & waterproof, leave little to be desired. After peering thru a scope for 20-30 seconds, your eyes need a rest, but using both thru the big 20x, I'm good for 2-3 minutes....and using both eyeballs, get resolution equal to 24x (on a Pentax PF80/XL21, which is a very good view) using one. And for $280 nothing will touch it. And it doesn't have particularly soft edges or noticable field curvature. It makes the logic of keeping the scope....strained.
 
Well I've cleaned out all but 5 pair and 2 will be going soon.So just as I'm thinking I'm purging my optical needs I realize I don't have a decent pair for star gazing.Now I can't ID a star without a good pair of optics can I?Whew......(shakes are stopping)......
 
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