Scottish Crossbill (1 Viewer)

Acanthis · Feb 26, 2004

Michael Frankis said:
Hi Sandy,

I'm told by David Jardine (also my source for the notes about historic Xbill museum skins) that the Dutch Birding CD has some errors on it - particularly, the 'Scottish Crossbills' on it are Parrots; they were apparently recorded at Abernethy before anyone realised there were also lots of Parrots there.

Michael

Hi Michael,
Thanks for that info! I'll disregard the CDs scotica recordings.
Magnus Robb is a birder rather than a scientist and has since passed all his data on to a ecological biologist - so we may get a clearer picture soon of the situation on the continent.
Despite the flawed Id of Scottish I would still recommend the CD to anyone interested in crossbill calls - there's about 75 tracks covering flight calls, songs, chitters, trumpet calls, alarm calls, excitement calls all available for direct comparison with those of other species and forms, plus the journal has a lengthy guide with loads of useful info too.

Acanthis · Feb 26, 2004

Michael Frankis said:
My personal preference is to agree that Scottish is probably derived from and referrable to Parrot, but the evidence to prove or disprove this is not yet found.

I'm inclined to agree, with a few reservations. Interestingly at the 2003 EOU conference David Jardine and Ron Summers stated that 'calls of crossbills in Spain, Majorca, Cyprus and Morocco all showed some joint similarities, and also similarities with Parrot crossbills in Scotland. The idea that there are distinct subspecies in the Mediterranean was not supported by vocalisations.' This was only a workshop abstract and not a published paper.
Perhaps we're dealing with a 'Pine' Crossbill species found in Scandinavia, Scotland, and the Med. with some local call variation.

Acanthis · Feb 26, 2004

Tim Allwood said:
nothing we haven't seen before Michael

Watch it!
I'm visiting my sister in Norfolk next month. I just might bring south a savage, painted horde and come chapping at your door!

:-O

Acanthis · Feb 26, 2004

Lindsay Cargill said:
I am pretty sure there are birders who can ID these birds with a fair degree of confidence, given experience, in most cases ;-} - there is no doubt that some will be difficult. It can become a self fullfilling prophecy if we are not careful and it is becoming trendy to lump them all together.

It's very tempting to view that as a cop-out or just plain laziness!
I agree they're very difficult to tell apart but this has everything to do with the fundamental limitations of human senses. The birds themselves can tell each other apart. In Holland in the winter of 97/98 birders (not scientists I must add) observed that a Common Crossbill feeding flock of a mixture of vocal types, when flushed tended to rearrange itself into flight-call groups. Also the same crossbills as the breeding season approached began pairing up exclusively with members of their own call group. No mixed pairings were observed though of course the sample size was fairly small.
Now I'm not suggesting these represent different species (I'm just a birder not a scientist!) but they appear to behave as though they are.
One call type though(christened the 'Weet' Crossbill) is so distinct in its flight-calls that even a rank beginner would pick it out of a mixed flock. Strangely enough very similar-sounding crossbills can be found in Vietnam; Loxia curvirostra meridionalis - a large, heavy-built, pine-adapted crossbill. I don't know if the two are connected but the idea is very compelling!

Jasonbirder · Feb 26, 2004

I wouldn`t disagree that there are a broad range of Crossbills which can be observed In the Speyside Forests - but I would hesitate to say they can neatly be divided into 3 relatively defined groups...
From my observations (somewhat simplistically) there are Common Crossbills, slim billed, "chip" calls, numbers of which vary significantly year on year (there were thousands early 2003!)
There are Parrots (or Scottish Parrots or whatever) that have bulbous mandibles (and appear flat crowned/bull necked - though that could just be an illusion) and have deep "chup" calls numbers of which seem more constant (though i`ve only got observations back to 2001 to base this on!)
There are certainly birds intermediate between these two extremes - which I certainly find hard to define better than Crossbill sp or ssp is as good as I can manage!

They are not always easy birds to observe - frequently mobile or high in trees though they can sometimes be suprisingly cooperative perched like sentinals in the treetops! But I couldn`t say definatively myself whether these intermediates represent a defined "phase" with constant structure/call or a clinal range from one extreme to the other (though I suspect the latter)....That being the key question as to whether they represent a defined species or race I suppose.
I shall be up for a few days before the end of the month and will pay them even closer attention than usual....

I don`t think its a "cop-out" to not try to identify the intermediates just being able to define them as classic Common, Intermediate & "Heavy" is good enough for me!

As a nipper on a family holiday to Aviemore I just saw Crossbills and called them Scottish Crossbills because of where I was - how much easier was that!

Jasonbirder · Feb 26, 2004

I think you are right in many respects though simply identifying intermediate type birds as Scottish, "Scottish" or even Scottish (hehehe) does strike me as a bit of a negative ID - ID by elimination rather than on any positive features which i don`t entirely feel comfortable with....particularly when i`m not sure whether the Intermediates we see are genuinely clustered around a particular range of characters or whether the variation is clinal....

I guess that the question has evolved into is Scottish Crossbill a "good" species because I don`t think there is a debate as to whether intermediates exist or whether they can be ID`d - though lone, out of location birds would be pretty scarey!

Scottish Crossbills have been retained as a species in part because they are our only endemic species and even more because I think there is a need for a flagship species which can be associated with the preservation of the Caledonian forests.

Edward woodwood · Feb 26, 2004

Dont overlook the amazing plasticity of bill morphology which can change very quickly indeed.

I think they only fit the 'recognition species concept' at the moment - not the most widely used in ornithology. Tenuosly at that in my opinion as well. They are to my eyes and ears evolving as we speak (remnant Parrots adapting IMHO, and perhaps hybridising with Parrots in Scot Pine areas) hence the great difficulty to see whats going on.....to put limits on something that's changing is obviously very difficult!

birdman · Feb 26, 2004

Michael Frankis said:
Errr Tim,

Watch out . . . 'scotch' means ONLY whisky, and nothing else - the correct word is Scots or Scottish

You might just get a tartan-clad war party heading your way . . . :eek!:

Michael

Well there's Scotch Egg, Scotch Mist...

I think (I'm sure some one will prove me wrong!!!) that it is Scots if it is intangible (eg Language), Scotch if it is tangible but inanimate (eg whisky) and Scottish if it is living (eg Crossbill)... ermm... except for Scots Pine!!! :eek!:

Anyway, back to the main thread topic.

I've tried to keep a track of this because it is potentially relevant to my life-list (which does matter to me) - but it has got a bit too technical for me in many places!

I'm due a break up near Invergordon, and I have read that Balblair Wood (close to Dornoch) maintains a population of Scottish Crossbills.

Assuming I even see a Crossbill at all, and I currently have none on my life-list, will I be able to id it?

I think the consensus of opinion (ignoring Two-barred) is that if it has a significantly reduced bill it will be Common, if it has a significantly enlarged bill it will be Parrot, but anything else could be anything.

In addition, even if I had the requisite skill to recognise the call, there is not definitive agreement over successful id by call.

The only other potential factor is to id the tree (!!!) and even then, that will simply split Common from Scottish/Parrot.

Is this about right?

digi-birder · Feb 26, 2004

Just put Crossbill sp. as I have on my list! Much simpler.

Binocularface · Feb 26, 2004

Jasonbirder said:
Scottish Crossbills have been retained as a species in part because they are our only endemic species and even more because I think there is a need for a flagship species which can be associated with the preservation of the Caledonian forests.

Scottish Crossbill is certainly our only recognised 'endemic' at present, but the Redgrouse is perhaps our likely true endemic?

birdman · Feb 26, 2004

Tristan R said:
Scottish Crossbill is certainly our only recognised 'endemic' at present, but the Redgrouse is perhaps our likely true endemic?

I've said this myself before, but since found out that strictly speaking, the answer is no.

A British Isles endemic, indeed, but I understand that the range includes the Republic of Ireland.

Michael Frankis · Feb 26, 2004

Acanthis said:
I'm inclined to agree, with a few reservations. Interestingly at the 2003 EOU conference David Jardine and Ron Summers stated that 'calls of crossbills in Spain, Majorca, Cyprus and Morocco all showed some joint similarities, and also similarities with Parrot crossbills in Scotland. The idea that there are distinct subspecies in the Mediterranean was not supported by vocalisations.' This was only a workshop abstract and not a published paper.
Perhaps we're dealing with a 'Pine' Crossbill species found in Scandinavia, Scotland, and the Med. with some local call variation.

Hi Sandy,

That would tie in with my very Parrot-like Xbills I had in Bulgaria, it makes more sense to extend the range of Parrot south, than invoke a lot of new taxa. Is that the full abstract, or is there more?

Tristan said:
Scottish Crossbill is certainly our only recognised 'endemic' at present, but the Redgrouse is perhaps our likely true endemic?

Agreed, apart of course for that it's a British isles endemic as Birdman says!

Lindsay Cargill said:
( I saw one on Monday at Glen Tanar :eek!: )

Lucky you - last time I was there, had a flock of about 40 crossbills, every one with a slender bill and typical Common Xb calls! . . . in native pines as well, so much for identifying the crossbill by the tree it's perched in

Birdman said:
think (I'm sure some one will prove me wrong!!!) that it is Scots if it is intangible (eg Language), Scotch if it is tangible but inanimate (eg whisky) and Scottish if it is living (eg Crossbill)... ermm... except for Scots Pine!!! :eek!:

I think the consensus of opinion (ignoring Two-barred) is that if it has a significantly reduced bill it will be Common, if it has a significantly enlarged bill it will be Parrot, but anything else could be anything.

In addition, even if I had the requisite skill to recognise the call, there is not definitive agreement over successful id by call.

The only other potential factor is to id the tree (!!!) and even then, that will simply split Common from Scottish/Parrot.

Is this about right?

Hi Birdman,
The basics is that 'Scots' is Scots for Scots, while 'Scotch' is English for Scots, and is felt as a much-disliked linguistic imposition by the southern invaders. It was also used by the English in a pejorative way "we'll scotch their plans", meaning roughly "spoil them as we did the Scotch". Presumably the alcohol content of whisky is enough to drown the distaste!

And yes, about right, unless you've got a tape recorder and means to analyse the calls you record!

Conifer idents - for what you need, if the needles are over an inch long, Scots Pine, if under an inch long, Spruce. If leafless (at this time of year anyway!), Larch.

Michael

Binocularface · Feb 26, 2004

birdman said:
I've said this myself before, but since found out that strictly speaking, the answer is no.

A British Isles endemic, indeed, but I understand that the range includes the Republic of Ireland.

You are right of course, somehow slipped my mind that Red Grouse occurs in Ireland!

birdman · Feb 26, 2004

Michael Frankis said:
It was also used by the English in a pejorative way "we'll scotch their plans", meaning roughly "spoil them as we did the Scotch".

Mmmm... never knew that!

Michael Frankis said:
Conifer idents - for what you need, if the needles are over an inch long, Scots Pine, if under an inch long, Spruce. If leafless (at this time of year anyway!), Larch.

Michael

Much appreciated :t:

alcedo.atthis · Feb 26, 2004

Crossbills and Grouse

>Scottish Crossbills have been retained as a species in part because >they are our only endemic species and even more because I think >there is a need for a flagship species which can be associated with the >preservation of the Caledonian forests.

Where does this impression come from. On searching the web in relation to Scottish Crossbills, a number of claims have been found, relating to DNA, bill size, call, body size and wing length. There is another to be found. Evolution!! It is thought in some quarters that this species "may" actually be evolving, and we just happen to be there as it does. Time will tell, say in a couple hundred years or so. We aint going to be there, so why worry.

As for Red Grouse, aint there Red Grouse in Germany??

Transient migrants, perhaps!

Lindsay, have you spoken to Skitts regarding ringing data from Glen Tanar with respect to Crossbills?

Regards,
Malky @ Westhill

Edward woodwood · Feb 26, 2004

Hey Malky,
it almost certainly is evolution in action as I said in an earlier post

intermediates were generally thought to be in Scots Pine but are now more catholic - perhaps as a result of Parrots pushing them out of Scots Pine areas. Indeed the Scots pines on Speyside are now the spot to see Parrots.....

interesting.....

Michael Frankis · Feb 26, 2004

Hi Lindsay,

It was mid April 2003 - after a winter when there had been a good Sitka Spruce cone crop to attract them in, but no Norway Spruce crop at all to sustain them in spring. So when the Sitka crop was empty by early spring, they had no option of moving onto Norway, and were forced onto Scots Pine as the only available option. It didn't surprise me at all, as I'd noticed the same back here in Northumbs a month or so earlier, Common Xbills moving out of Sitka onto Scots as soon as the Sitka cones were empty.

Commons can open Scots Pine cones no problem; they just can't do it very fast. So they can survive on Scots, but what they probably can't do is open them fast enough to feed a brood of young as well as themselves. So individuals will live, but not reproduce well and the population might die out.

So they use Scots as an emergency food, when there's nothing better available. So it is unusual, but far from unknown, to get flocks of Commons in Scots Pines. It is predictable, by observing conifers and knowing if there is anything else available or not.

Approx seed shedding times (depends a bit on weather); after the end of seed shedding, the cones are empty and useless for crossbills:
Sitka Spruce - October to February
Norway Spruce - January to April
Scots Pine - March to May

PS For the quoutes, you need a closing tag ( / ) at the end:
{quote=name}bit of text quoted{/quote} just replace the curly brackets with square brackets.

Hi Malky,

Nope, no Red Grouse in Germany, other than perhaps any feral ones from deliberate releases (which have been tried, I think without success though).

Michael Frankis · Feb 26, 2004

Tim Allwood said:
Hey Malky,
it almost certainly is evolution in action as I said in an earlier post

intermediates were generally thought to be in Scots Pine but are now more catholic - perhaps as a result of Parrots pushing them out of Scots Pine areas. Indeed the Scots pines on Speyside are now the spot to see Parrots.....

interesting.....

Hi Tim,

The very limited evidence available suggests that many (?most ?all) of the intermediates were in the Laird's exotic conifers close to the castle, not the native pinewoods

Michael

Edward woodwood · Feb 26, 2004

Am I mistaken that all thru the late 80s and nineties the place to see Scotbills was in the old caledonian native forests of Speyside?

Michael Frankis · Feb 26, 2004

Hi Tim,

Yes it was, but who knows what they were actually seeing - were they all blithely ticking Parrots off as Scottish?

Certainly the ones I saw up there then (early '90's) on a Northumberland & Tyneside Bird Club trip had incredible bills on. We had the advantage of a tip-off from our trip leader (who happened to be one of the group working on the crossbills) that they were Parrots, shortly before the 'official' announcement was made that Speyside's crossbills were mostly Parrots.

Michael

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