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USA Shutdown, impact on state parks? (1 Viewer)

Egret said:
I don't understand; what is to stop you getting out of your car and having a walk? I can see that campsites etc. might be closed but how can an area the size of Yosemite be closed?

Andy
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Yosemite only has a couple of entrances. if those have gates that can be locked, the only way you're getting in is on foot. And they probably do, since there's no other way to charge your entrance fee without running you past a booth.

And most of the wildlife refuges, at least here on the east coast, also have gates.
 
The areas are shut down to the public, but that doesn't imply no one is there, or laws have been supplanted by individual wants and desires. It is hard enough to combat poaching for black bear gall that fulfills an insatiable appetite elsewhere, and then in same places, having to remind birders things are not as normal.
 
Bird_Bill said:
The areas are shut down to the public, but that doesn't imply no one is there, or laws have been supplanted by individual wants and desires. It is hard enough to combat poaching for black bear gall that fulfills an insatiable appetite elsewhere, and then in same places, having to remind birders things are not as normal.
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There is a problem with black bear poachers? I honestly didn't know that. I would've thought the stereotypical image of Americans as gun nuts would keep foreign demand for poached American animals at a minimum. Then perhaps, that is wishful thinking.
 
Jeff hopkins said:
Yosemite only has a couple of entrances. if those have gates that can be locked, the only way you're getting in is on foot. And they probably do, since there's no other way to charge your entrance fee without running you past a booth.

And most of the wildlife refuges, at least here on the east coast, also have gates.
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According to Yosemite site, the main Yosemite gates remain open because it is the only east-west road in that region. Side roads are closed and it is forbidden, in their words, to stop or recreate. If I remember anyhow, there are no gates, because even during normal times, if you enter at early morning or night, there is nobody present to take your entrance fee and you then pay when you leave.

I presume traffic police and limited 'essential' staff still patrol the roads to a degree to enforce violations.
 
My son is based on the West Coast. He advised that the barriers prevent vehicular entry to the main site at Bosque del Apache. The public highway passes by the site and that is still open. One can walk in. I cannot imagine how Madera Canyon can be closed. While it would be easy to put a barrier on the sole entry road, people live in the park and have to have access. As for Yosemite? He was planning to be there next week but was considering cancellation.

The joys of politics. For birders it is an annoyance. For children who may go without food it is a tragedy. I suspect that any services impacting the legislaters ( security men, chauffeurs flunkeys etc.) will, however, be classified as essential services so there will be no impact on their lives. Any Bunga Bunga parties in Washington next week?
 
I have a small place outstate, bordered on three sides by national forest. Those national forest being manage differently than the parks. Lawlessness is often worse in the forest, because management practices differ, and less overall use. Poaching wildlife, illegal timbering, mineral prospecting, artifact hunting, overharvesting of commodities like wild ginseng, are just a few things evidence has been seen of. Throw in illicit drug production and one might begin to get an ideal of what happens in some of those places. Spending time in the middle of it, has given insight to what enforcement is dealing with. This shut down is a political mess and lacks any humanity, but it is no excuse to make life tougher on the few people left working in those places currently.
 
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The Blue Ridge Parkway is open!!!!!!! All the tourists think it isn't, so the road is terrific for birding right now!!
 
I read in the news yesterday that some national parks/monuments are being reopened, although the states have to foot the bill: Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, and several parks in Utah. There may be others that I didn't hear about.

They have closed the front gate to Madera Canyon, but apparently there is somebody manning the gate to let in any lodge guests.
 
I'm so incredibly surprised that the way National Parks in the US operate. Firstly, I had no idea that they'd charge an entrance fee (is this in addition to any taxes on the American people that fund the parks - in essence having to pay twice?); and I had no idea that access was so tightly controlled.

Are National Parks completely "wild" areas, or are there people living in them - villages and small towns like those in the UK?

I've only just realised how completely ignorant I am of the way these parks are operated, having assumed they'd be similar to those over here.
 
ovenbird43 said:
I read in the news yesterday that some national parks/monuments are being reopened, although the states have to foot the bill: Grand Canyon, Mount Rushmore, and several parks in Utah. There may be others that I didn't hear about..
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This is subject to politics too. Florida's Republican governor Rick Scott has ruled out the opening of any of Florida's parks, including the Everglades. This is despite protests by local business and guides suffering total economic loss due to the closures. He opposes Obama on ideological grounds, so would rather see his state and people suffer rather than reach any deal to reopen.

If this drags on, can anybody see any reason for a birder to visit Florida? Virtually all the key sites are national parks, national wildlife refuges or similar, all are shut.
 
JTweedie said:
I'm so incredibly surprised that the way National Parks in the US operate. Firstly, I had no idea that they'd charge an entrance fee (is this in addition to any taxes on the American people that fund the parks - in essence having to pay twice?);

Are National Parks completely "wild" areas, or are there people living in them - villages and small towns like those in the UK?
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To be fair, entrance fees are essentially nominal - typically US$10-25 per vehicle and occupants for seven day entrance. It is also possible to buy an annual pass which, I think, gives unlimited access to all parks for about $80. The parks are not funded by the fees alone - the bulk of the cost, I believe, of the national park system is funded by the federal government, hence the closure when there is no federal budget.

They are not like those in the UK - maybe some exceptions, but generally do not have villages, etc, within them, certainly no large populations as can be in UK national parks.
 
This guy[link] argues that the shutdown of national parks is not really cost-effective and that the federal government didn't have the right to shut out the owner (i.e. the American people), anyway. I think he's onto something, although of course the argument that has been made on this thread about the remaining personnel having a difficult time even without visitors has to be taken into account.

Also, wouldn't the tourists in question be able to sue the US government for compensation, if the latter actively interferes with their booked tours without due cause ("due cause" meaning natural disasters, oil spills, radioactive leaks, or war zones inside the area)? Or is that a case for their insurance company?
 
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JTweedie said:
I'm so incredibly surprised that the way National Parks in the US operate. Firstly, I had no idea that they'd charge an entrance fee (is this in addition to any taxes on the American people that fund the parks - in essence having to pay twice?); and I had no idea that access was so tightly controlled.

Are National Parks completely "wild" areas, or are there people living in them - villages and small towns like those in the UK?

I've only just realised how completely ignorant I am of the way these parks are operated, having assumed they'd be similar to those over here.
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Most of our parks have no private residences. There's federal employee housing and concession housing. A few have recreational cabins (from before park status). I'm sure the odd other. In general - most of our parks are 'Big' and in the West. Alaska takes it to another level. Some native use and such up there.

I have to be honest with our priorities. They suck. 13 carrier task forces? And I like jets. Anyway - we get what we vote for - and people voted these 'Tea Types' in. Ah, the power of one 'Opinion' TV station and a few nuts on the radio. Goebbels would have a party here now. It all started with 80,000 votes for Nader in 2000.
 
Don't get me wrong, I wasn't complaining about the costs, but I was simply surprised. The way I thought the parks would work is that you could get free access to any of them, only paying for access to visitor centres or specially protected areas and the like. I didn't think you'd need to pay to see the Grand Canyon, one of the wonders of the world, but I suppose the money brought in helps to pay for management of trails and other important things.

Many of the parks to me are iconic and I hope to visit many of them in the future.
 
Sangahyando said:
Also, wouldn't the tourists in question be able to sue the US government for compensation, if the latter actively interferes with their booked tours without due cause ("due cause" meaning natural disasters, oil spills, radioactive leaks, or war zones inside the area)? Or is that a case for their insurance company?
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I was thinking that too - if I were heading to Florida in the next week or two, I would be cancelling (other states have enough to see outside national parks) or at least re-routing to elsewhere.

Pretty sure insurance would not cover you - strikes and industrial action are frequently not covered, especially if the trip is booked in segments (ie. flight, accommodation separately, etc).

Be interesting to see an attempt to sue the US government on this issue - can't see it succeeding, but if it ever happens, I would guess it could well be a US person visiting Europe that initiates the case: the US war cemeteries in France are also closed, many very upset US veterans turning up to find the sites closed.
 
I'm a member of a Geological Society and one of the branches is visiting the Grand Canyon soon - a trip that's been in the planning for almost a year. I'd hate to be one of that party if they got there and they couldn't get access, so it's good to read that it's opening up again.
 
Might try and sue, though it's doubtful a court here would listen for long. It is the same legal precedence, as non citizens suggesting civil disobedience and outright non compliance with domestic laws, when visiting here. In my mind, that's very close to an open declaration of war.

Private residence in National Parks generally does not happen. There are a few exceptions where property has been ceded over to the American people, until the residents expired, or moved, private parties continued living on premises. Believe that has happened in Gettysburg National military park.

Parks are funded through the Department of Interior, budget. Never, do appropriations cover all cost. Fees serve to bridge the gap. Other programs such as California Condor restoration are pretty much funded through the same budget.
Arizona’s Grand Canyon, Rocky Mountain National Park, and New York’s Statue of Liberty are open as a result of each state paying the cost, on a temporary basis. There are nine other National parks staying open as a result of an agreement with the Department of Interior
 
Bird_Bill said:
Might try and sue, though it's doubtful a court here would listen for long. It is the same legal precedence, as non citizens suggesting civil disobedience and outright non compliance with domestic laws, when visiting here. In my mind, that's very close to an open declaration of war.
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Eh, what? Nobody argued for defying federal US law here. What I'm saying is that if, say, a Japanese citizen has booked a trip to the US which includes national parks (for the sake of argument, let's say it's an all inclusive offer) before the shutdown, arrives in the US before the shutdown, and then finds himself barred from entering the places he's already paid for to visit - and this through no fault of his own, or the tour organizer, or the elements - shouldn't he get a re-fund of sorts? Or should he accept his hard-earned vacation getting ruined by the whims of an incompetent legislative? And the same goes for a "domestic", US American, tourist. Again, bear in mind that these places are owned by the American people, not by the government (regardless of party), or the executive.


TL; dr version: if the US government can just stop people from doing stuff they've paid for (in the absence of a very good reason like minefields or tsunamis, see above), and doesn't even offer compensation, it means that the US have become a banana republic.
 
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