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Junco question (1 Viewer)

C

cavan wood

Well-known member
Slate coloured is the common subspecies around here (Southern Ontario, Canada), but frequently enough I see a junco like the one in the photos. Is it within the normal variation of slated-coloured, or does it share some "pink-sided" genes? I know they are supposed to be further west, but those light coloured flanks, the brownish back, and the dark lores had me wondering about winter distribution of the pink-sided variety.

Scott
 
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It appears to me to be an "Oregon" Junco. The color of the back, and sides are all pretty good indicators. Although not a frequent visitor, I've seen them here in Pennsylvania, as they will occassionally stray as far east as the Atlantic seaboard.

This individual appears to be a female, as the head isn't distinctly darker than the rest of the body as would be with a male.
 
streatham said:
This in my honest opinin is well within the range for Slate Colored Junco. Legitimate Oregon Junco's are rare in the east but lack of understanding of variation by most birders leads to many claims of sightings of western supspecies. There was a good thread earlier this year on the issues - i'll dig up the link.

Aren't they called *Dark-eyed Juncos* now?
Click to expand...
 
Hi Carol,

Yes they are all DE Junco's (junco hyemalis) but as with many US birds they have a number of accepted subspecies which have common names (Oregon, Slate-colored, White-winged, Pink-sided, Red-backed and Gray-headed).

Luke
 
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streatham said:
This in my honest opinion is well within the range for Slate Colored Junco. Legitimate Oregon Junco's are rare in the east but lack of understanding of variation by most birders leads to many claims of sightings of western supspecies. There was a good thread earlier this year on the issues - i'll dig up the link.

Luke


http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=44760&highlight=junco
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I found the links through the earlier threads you posted above.

streatham said:
Anyway an interesting web article can be found here: http://www.oceanwanderers.com/JuncoID.html

and pictures here:
http://www.oceanwanderers.com/JuncoID2.html

purported Cassiar Junco on this page that looks much like your bird: http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/DEJU.html

Luke
Click to expand...


The second bird in the second of these links is almost identical to my bird. Am I reading the links correctly then, that the bird in that photo, and perhaps mine are of the cassiar type?

I had never heard of this cassiar junco, but wow, what a lot of variation there is in these birds. I would agree fully that my bird is not a true pink-sided or oregon junco (didn't think it was from the first), but it does look like the cassiar bird.

Scott
 
I'm going to be attending a sparrow/junco workshop the first week in March in Tucson and have got a bushelbasketful of questions and photos I'm dragging down to it in the hopes of getting more insight into some of these races and sub-races. I'll probably come away even more confused than ever ;) , but I'll summarize anything I find out and post it, especially as it applies to the ranges and intergrades of juncos. Not that that helps you now, Scott, but just thought I'd mention it. Love them juncos. ;)

EDIT: Forgot to add that I thought cassiar (or cismontanus) juncos had more gray in the flanks than brown, which made me think you had more of an Oreganus bird. But I've never seen juncos east of the Rockies so don't know what you're used to finding there.
 
Your Dark-eyed Junco seems like it fits right between Slate-colored and Oregon. There is a continuum that runs through the Junco sub-species. Where the exact demarcation line lies is tough to call. I have seen several D-e J's in Maryland that look very similar to yours but I still consider them Slate-colored Juncos.
 
cavan wood said:
I found the links through the earlier threads you posted above.




The second bird in the second of these links is almost identical to my bird. Am I reading the links correctly then, that the bird in that photo, and perhaps mine are of the cassiar type?

I had never heard of this cassiar junco, but wow, what a lot of variation there is in these birds. I would agree fully that my bird is not a true pink-sided or oregon junco (didn't think it was from the first), but it does look like the cassiar bird.

Scott
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Hi Scott,

Your right this bird is what looks like a Cassiar Junco (cismontanus) the problem is that I think a fair number of people question whether this is a legitimate subspecies. It is interesting to note that although Sibley illustrates a female type of this bird (it is the one on the lower right hand side of his slate-colored section) he does not have it marked as a Cassiar.

Luke
 
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Katy Penland said:
I'm going to be attending a sparrow/junco workshop the first week in March in Tucson and have got a bushelbasketful of questions and photos I'm dragging down to it in the hopes of getting more insight into some of these races and sub-races. I'll probably come away even more confused than ever ;) , but I'll summarize anything I find out and post it, especially as it applies to the ranges and intergrades of juncos. Not that that helps you now, Scott, but just thought I'd mention it. Love them juncos. ;)

EDIT: Forgot to add that I thought cassiar (or cismontanus) juncos had more gray in the flanks than brown, which made me think you had more of an Oreganus bird. But I've never seen juncos east of the Rockies so don't know what you're used to finding there.
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Hi Katy,

I will be awaiting definitive answers on all of our Junco queries when you get back from the workshop then ;)

Luke
 
Thanks Luke, and others. Can't wait Katy. I've wondered about these guys for quite a while, so here's hoping more light will be shed.

Scott
 
This, to me, looks like your average Slate-colored Dark-eyed Junco. In my experience, some SC DE's are browner on the sides than others, particularly females. These certainly aren't light enough to be Pink-sided and aren't contrasting enough to be Oregon, so, sorry to say that these are just Slate-colored.
 
Just went out in my yard to observe Juncos that come here and honestly think I saw several that looked like yours along with the slate colored one. don't have time for photos but will try maybe tomorrow gotta get to work.
 
Add my vote to those who see this as within normal range of variation for Slate-colored, without a need to go intergrade / Cassiar.

I did see what I believed to be a genuine dark adult male Oregon last year at my feeders, and the hood was dark, crisp and distinctive, while the rufous tones to the flanks and back were strong. (Minnesota is also adjacent to Nebraska, which has Oregon juncos in the western regions.)

The subject bird here however has a quasi-hood that appears so diffuse that it can hardly be called a hood at all, the flanks and back are brownish with just a hint of reddish, and I think it is well within range of variation. Although given my more westerly location than the East Coasters in this discussion, I may very well be seeing intergrades with a bit of Oregon in them often enought that I just shrug them off as completely normal Slate-coloreds.
 
It does kind of make one wonder why the separation of this species into so many races to begin with, since there seems to be so much hybridization. I mean, are humans with red hair and blue eyes a different race from humans with blue eyes and black hair or blonde hair and brown eyes? (I'll probably regret asking that question. ;) )
 
Thayeri said:
The subject bird here however has a quasi-hood that appears so diffuse that it can hardly be called a hood at all, the flanks and back are brownish with just a hint of reddish, and I think it is well within range of variation. Although given my more westerly location than the East Coasters in this discussion, I may very well be seeing intergrades with a bit of Oregon in them often enought that I just shrug them off as completely normal Slate-coloreds.
Click to expand...

I agree that the diffused coloration kind of write off the Oregon Junco theory, though the females of the Oregon's race are very diffused color-wise as well. (To explain why I thought it may be a female Oregon's race.)

These juncos have long confused me, and as I grew as a birder, I also grew more suspicious of how frequently I would come across these brownish/reddish variations. It was far too frequent to be the Oregon Junco, and yet they were obviously different from the more average looking Slate-Colored.

Definitely interesting. As I sit here there are some slate-coloreds flitting around under the feeder. Oh the confusion they've caused! |:D|

Ah well...it's always fun to speculate, and learn new things about birds.

By the way...I came across this cool link with some neat photographs and information regarding this exact topic. Check it out:

Click here to view.
 
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