Photographers without fieldcraft (1 Viewer)

Bit of a tricky one this!
On two ocassions I have met a couple of photographers who travelled a long way to photogragh some birds in a certain location.
The same thing happened both times.
As I had intimate knowledge of the location I led them to the birds.
They were so anxious to get a good shot they got as close as possible to take a shot.
The birds were clearly anxious, alarm calling yet they insisted on getting closer and closer taking snap after snap.
Not wishing to cause a scene I left them to it, whereas I know I should have asked them to back off.

I am not being holier than thou but I am well aware how close to approach a bird which is why I use my scope.Also as I am not after a photo I don't need to get so close as these photographers.
I am sure there are many responsible photographers out there but these two characters had no idea about sensitive bird watching.

Lesson learnt-next time I see someone with a camera I am keeping my mouth shut!

On a similar theme I've have been asked for advice by photographers quite often on how to get better photos. To certain folk (and an increasing number) my advice has been; "put the camera in a draw for a year and just go out birding". The rationale is that learning how to watch birds, understand them and respect them is far more valuable to a photographer than any equipment or technical knowledge.

Unfortunately (IMO!) there is less and less fieldcraft and more folk photographing first and IDing later - I believe that a more profound enjoyment is attained by doing the opposite.

The other side of the coin. I'm a birder who takes photographs, more so the latter in recent times. I like a challenge.

A while ago (October 2009) I and another birder, similarly interested, had taken considerable time to approach some bushes that a firecrest was patrolling on Holy Island and had set ourselves to get photos on an intercept path as it came along the willows. It was in our interests as photographers to let the bird approach us closely - you don't get photos by flushing stuff. It wasn't easy, because of the foliage on the willows, but we'd managed one pass with lots of twigs in the way and poor views and we'd settled down to wait for better luck next time when a bird club arrived on the scene. They proceeded to trample up and down the willows, flushing and chasing the firecrest and putting an end to our hopes.

I tossed in the towel and went off to the Straight Lonnen for some peace, where I knew a yellow-browed warbler was showing well. When I got there it and a lesser whitethroat were comfortable in a berried hawthorn tree on the side of the track. Another birder was patiently waiting with his camera on a tripod a safe distance from the tree and he'd managed some shots of the lesser whitethroat and was hopeful of the YBW. I quietly (with his agreement) set up my camera on a tripod next to him and we waited in silence, managing a few shots of the lesser whitethroat, but no luck with the YBW for the time being because it chose that time to flit off to a bush on the fenceline near the chicken coops. This wasn't a problem, because that was part of its routine and we knew it would be back. All we had to do was wait.

So we thought.

A disturbance behind us showed that the bird club had become bored with the firecrest and were after other ticks, and the quicker the better.

As they got up to us I spoke in hushed tones (as we'd done when informing them of he firecrest's habits earlier), saying that the YBW had been getting close in the tree just in front of us and it would be back, but at the moment it was in one of three small bushes along the fenceline. I pointed it out to them.

I expected from this that they would be respectful and stay just behind us, or at worst alongside us and our tripods for the time it took for the YBW to return. The bush it was in was small and in full view and it could be seen from where we stood.

Not a chance.

Without so much as a 'kiss my ****' they swarmed forward, two of them actually walking into the grass directly beneath the hawthorn tree to set up their telescopes there on the fence-line, so that they could scope the YBW in the bush about 30 yards away. Chattering as they did so.

This had three effects.

1. The lesser whitethroat vacated the tree as they crashed under it, never to return.

2. The YBW kept away, moving from the bush it was in (in which they were only getting distant views in preference to the close views they would have had if they'd stayed back and waited quietly) to patrol it and other bushes further along the fence-line, avoiding the hawthorn altogether.

3. The other bloke who'd been there for ages waiting quietly and I moved off defeated - once more frustrated by the cluelessness, lack of respect and total lack of fieldcraft of the bird club members in question.

I don't dispute that many photographers are lacking in fieldcraft, but it's an arrogance to assume that many birders aren't similarly short.

We're all just people and there's no dividing line between photographers and birders, apart from the former maybe spend less time halo-polishing and disparaging the other than the latter.

Barred Wobbler said:

I don't dispute that many photographers are lacking in fieldcraft, but it's an arrogance to assume that many birders aren't similarly short.

We're all just people and there's no dividing line between photographers and birders, apart from the former maybe spend less time halo-polishing and disparaging the other than the latter.

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Yes - I knew I'd open a wasps nest - but I agree totally with your statements too!

This conversation does crop up a lot - usually when someone has experienced a particularly selfish/moronic photographer/birder/twitcher/yeti or group thereof. There's nothing anyone can really do about it, 90% (well, 80 or perhaps 70 or…) of people are sensible and considerate, the other percentage don't care what anyone else thinks as long as they get what they want. Does this sound like the rest of real life to anyone?

I have to admit that when I am out birding I am always conscious of other people's line of sight, whether it be for bins, scope or camera. Often I am out in parks and places that aren't specific birding venues and I don't know what interests other people so I may discreetly hover behind someone with a massive camera & tripod to see what they are on in case it's something of interest to me. But I wouldn't disturb the individual to ask what they were on unless they made it clear they were open to being disturbed.

I don't know if this comes under fieldcraft, to me it's just common courtesy and politeness. I have to accept to some degree that standing on a path (ideally to one side where possible) with my bins aimed up at a tree won't stop some people from marching through making all sorts of noise and almost barging me out the way at times spoiling any hopes I had of getting a good view of whatever I was after. Some people view public parks as shared resources that are open to all so respect how others use these spaces whereas other people take the view that they have as much right as anyone else to use the space how they see fit and if that is letting the dog run wild, running around shouting or cycling along shared paths at high speed barking at people who don't leap out of their way then so be it.

In bird hides I try to make sure my scope doesn't block anyone else from getting a decent view of the bird in question. I don't think either birders or photographers have any sort of right to claim the best views - I see it more as first come, first served. I may try and upgrade my view to a better spot if one becomes available but I will also cede the spot to someone else if they have been waiting to get in.

It's just about being polite and learning to play nicely with the other children really, isn't it?

Public parks are a different kettle of fish, anything can happen and probably will I regularly use Home Park (Hampton Court Palace for non-locals) and we have plenty of golfers, dog walkers, runners and talkative but friendly lunatics. It makes stalking your prey a bit tricky, but hey, we're all out enjoying ourselves in our different ways, so it's just smile and say hello (while thinking "I was just getting that wagtail in focus you &^%$*!").

I'll say one thing here and that's go birding for a few years before doing photography.that way you'll learn the habits of the birds that you're hoping to photograph later.things like the weather time of year time of day all come into play.if you look at art morris the american bird photographer you'll see that followed the same path of birder first then photographer.

Cheers.

Steve.

stevo said:

I'll say one thing here and that's go birding for a few years before doing photography.that way you'll learn the habits of the birds that you're hoping to photograph later.things like the weather time of year time of day all come into play.if you look at art morris the american bird photographer you'll see that followed the same path of birder first then photographer.

Cheers.

Steve.

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More halo-polishing, it seems. Excuse me If I've picked you up wrongly.

Birders aren't some higher form of life and there's more to being a photographer than taking pictures of birds, although I understand that many birders have a certain image in their minds when they utter with disdain the word 'photographer'. It's somebody with a lens that's bigger than the birder's scope, I reckon, although it's true that some folks that you find in hides can't tell a sparrow from a sparrowhawk (and I'm not just talking about the photographers -we all had to learn). My modest 400mm isn't much bigger than my Kowa, so maybe I get away with it.

Where does that place me? Am I a 'birder' or a 'photographer', assuming for a moment that the two are mutually exclusive and a 'birder' just happens to be someone without access to, or interest in, a camera?

Since I was a child I've had an interest in birds, I was identifying species as soon as I had access to the Observers' Book of Birds and later the Oxford Book of British Birds from the County Library ( I bought a copy of that from E-bay just last year, not because I needed it, but for old time's sake). I used to copy the illustrations as well as learning the appearance, seasons and habits of the birds when I should have been doing homework.

Equally I've had an interest in cameras since I first saw my father's 'bellows'-style 120 that he used to take family photographs with, but only on sunny days that the camera could handle, in the 1950s. That camera still stands on a sideboard in our sitting room as an ornament and memento.

In the late 60s I was developing and printing my own photos in the school darkroom, but none of them were of birds, because I had no means of photographing them with my 35mm Halina. That didn't mean I wasn't interested in birds, although the term 'birder' didn't exist at the time.

By the mid/late 70s I had a bird guide 'The Birds of Britain and Europe' and I thought it would be interesting after I'd had it for a while to 'tick' the birds in it that I'd seen just to count them, although at that time I knew no other birders and had no idea that bird lists existed. I'd also never heard of 'ticking'.

Later still I was still taking photographs in large numbers, but none at all were of birds, because you needed to be loaded to buy the kit. I did by then find the cash to buy my first binoculars and my bird-list grew, but I had no means of knowing whether it was good or not, because there was nothing to compare it with - it was just personal interest.

By 1999/2000 I bought my first scope and a couple of years later I started experimenting with taking photographs through it with my company's digital camera after I'd seen a magazine article. I got some very poor, blurry images at Linton and elsewhere in the locailty that I used as the basis of some pastel drawings (copy of one of my early efforts below and the two atrocious digiscope experiments from Dec 2001 that it was based on - the original's on my wall). Later my ability at what was then called 'digiscoping' improved after I bought my Coolpix in 2002. Then the photos took over and I hung back on the drawings.

later still I got a Lumix bridge camera and about 5 years ago my first DSLR and 400mm lens. At last I could take the photos of birds that I wished I'd been able to take when I was at school in the 1960s.

In the last couple of years I packed in the year-listing after I got a dose of sanity and realised it was (a) a waste of petrol and (b) an even bigger waste of time. Now I want to get good photos of birds, not necessarily rare ones, while adding the odd special to my life and county lists.

So what does that make me?

A birder. or a photographer?

I need to ask, because it seems to me that in the eyes of many over-precious birders, you can only be one or the other and If you've got a camera lens longer than your nose you can't be a birder. I maybe need to tick a box to identify which I am, but I'm buggered if I know which box to tick.

What is it about birders that makes so many of them think they are special?

Sorry about the rant, but it just pulls my strings to see all the pointless birders-v-photographers sniping on Birdforum, as if the two hobbies were somehow different, exclusive to one another and at odds.

Simon Wates said:

On a similar theme I've have been asked for advice by photographers quite often on how to get better photos. To certain folk (and an increasing number) my advice has been; "put the camera in a draw for a year and just go out birding". The rationale is that learning how to watch birds, understand them and respect them is far more valuable to a photographer than any equipment or technical knowledge.

Unfortunately (IMO!) there is less and less fieldcraft and more folk photographing first and IDing later - I believe that a more profound enjoyment is attained by doing the opposite.

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stevo said:

I'll say one thing here and that's go birding for a few years before doing photography.that way you'll learn the habits of the birds that you're hoping to photograph later.things like the weather time of year time of day all come into play.if you look at art morris the american bird photographer you'll see that followed the same path of birder first then photographer.

Cheers.

Steve.

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The problem here though is the assumption that to respect the birds you first have to have undergone some form apprenticeship through birding, as if this automatically leads to a knowledge of different birds habits and tolerance of human presence.
The fact of the matter is there are many 'lazy' birders who have been birding for years who are equally as clueless as many photographers when it comes to a birds behavioural habits, they have as little regard for the birds welfare as the photographers who were in the OP's first post.
To counterbalance the above though, I have come across a good number of birders and photographers who have an excellent knowledge of the birds they are watching/photographing and a desire to see the birds wellbeing come first. I remember an excellent article by Andy Rouse a few months ago part of which dealt with fieldcraft, in it he was particularly scathing of photographers (though this could equally apply to birders) who ignored the signs that they were causing a bird distress.

For me it comes down not to whether you are a birder or photographer, nor to if you have had some experience birding before picking up a camera. Rather it comes down to each individuals nature, you either respect wildlife or you don't.
There are those in each camp who do respect it just as there are those in each camp who don't.
Can people learn to respect wildlife, of course they can, is there a prescribed route....certainly not. We can learn to respect wildlife as either a photographer or as a birder.

The truth is we - birders, bird photographers, etc - all have feet of clay in respect of allowing our enthusiasm to cloud our judgement at times. Beginners more than most since they're not always aware of the clues more experienced birders use to understand that they're too close. To my mind one problem is that the drive to 'get the photo' often means getting closer than birders sans camera feel necessary. It can also become so consuming that the photographer becomes less aware of their surroundings - be they other birders or the birds themselves. Birders generally just want good ID views of the bird concerned which fortunately doesn't mean they have to be so close as a rule. I don't often go on twitches these days, but it's always seemed to be the case that the people who feel most need to get that much closer are photographers. I'm well aware of this pressure myself which is why I rarely take my camera out when I'm birding in the UK. Birding abroad is a little different as, generally, you're more likely to have the bird to yourself and thus less likely to cause problems for others. Except where birds are breeding or the bird is liable to suffer persistent disturbance (as rarities tend to be) I'm not convinced much harm is done overall. More often than not the bird can control the situation by flicking over the hedge, etc. My particular bete noire is overuse of playback .....

John Cantelo said:

The truth is we - birders, bird photographers, etc - all have feet of clay in respect of allowing our enthusiasm to cloud our judgement at times. Beginners more than most since they're not always aware of the clues more experienced birders use to understand that they're too close. To my mind one problem is that the drive to 'get the photo' often means getting closer than birders sans camera feel necessary. It can also become so consuming that the photographer becomes less aware of their surroundings - be they other birders or the birds themselves. Birders generally just want good ID views of the bird concerned which fortunately doesn't mean they have to be so close as a rule. I don't often go on twitches these days, but it's always seemed to be the case that the people who feel most need to get that much closer are photographers. I'm well aware of this pressure myself which is why I rarely take my camera out when I'm birding in the UK. Birding abroad is a little different as, generally, you're more likely to have the bird to yourself and thus less likely to cause problems for others. Except where birds are breeding or the bird is liable to suffer persistent disturbance (as rarities tend to be) I'm not convinced much harm is done overall. More often than not the bird can control the situation by flicking over the hedge, etc. My particular bete noire is overuse of playback .....

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There you go, John, generalising and pigeon-holing.


I refer you to my first post on this thread where a mob of 'birders' charged beyond two other birders who also happened to be photographers, not once, but twice to crowd the birds and get better views than the patient 'photographers' were waiting for and had planned. So much for the supposed superior skills of birders.

There seems to be a compulsion amongst certain people to pigeon-hole and categorise other people. It's as if it's an extension of the birding hobby where birds must be put in certain families and sub-species and therefore so must the people who pursue them for whatever reason, whether to see them or photograph them, as a by-product providing the photographs that 'birders' now demand as almost essential for the identification of certain birds. Birdforum is a prime example of this. Show me a birder who says he doesn't benefit from the product of the reviled photographers and I'll show you a hypocrite.

We can't all be categorised and there are tossers amongst birders, just as there are amongst photographers and just as there are amongst people who fall between those 'categories' and even people who have no interest in either (ie the vast majority of the population who think that we are all weird and obsessive beyond redemption anyway).

I remember the days before the word 'birder' came into use and people who now are called birders would have been called birdwatchers and their hobby wouldn't have been 'birding', but 'birdwatching'.

I suspect that was about the time that the preciousness and imagined superiority crept in. Airs and graces are never attractive.

Barred Wobbler said:

I suspect that was about the time that the preciousness and imagined superiority crept in. Airs and graces are never attractive.

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While I have read, understood and sympathized with much of your writings, I feel you are in fact tainting too many with the same brush - its a bit OTT IMO.

My feelings on the subject are in no way as intense as yours.

Simon Wates said:

While I have read, understood and sympathized with much of your writings, I feel you are in fact tainting too many with the same brush - its a bit OTT IMO.

My feelings on the subject are in no way as intense as yours.

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Maybe so, but it's a fact that on this forum photographers get a hiding at every opportunity and 'birders' are seen as unblemished saints. The brush hits more people with cameras than it does those without and photographers are demonised here at every opportunity, often by the same people who, when a rarity turns up are the first to ask if there are any photos to confirm it. Where do they think the photos come from?

I take photographs, I'm also a birder (and birdwatcher) of long standing as I posted last night. My bird photos came about 30 years after my birdwatching. I don't make a distinction between 'birders' and 'photographers'. There is a spectrum that covers both and all shades in between and there is all to much snobbery attached to not being seen as a 'photographer', even to the extent of boasting about not taking a camera out birding. How ridiculous is that?

We are all involved in the same hobby and the birders benefit from the photographers, just as photographers benefit from birders. I freely post many photographs (and illustrated trip reports) here in the hope that others who don't have them will benefit. Maybe the people who are disparagingly called 'photographers' are in most cases simply birders with cameras, as I am (or at least I think I am).

What is 'OTT' about arguing that point in the face of the prejudice that pours from so many posts on this forum?

Yes BW - personally my only little quip is with beginner bird photographers who started out with photography rather than birding/birdwatching. In that I think I have a point saying that some could do well just birding sometimes to improve their knowledge of ID and fieldcraft. I say this with a view to giving good advice for the good - not as a rant.

In no way am I underestimating the enormous and increasing value of bird photography that we all benefit from - and the birds too.

I'm aware that snobbery in birding exists and I beg to stay far away!

I don't disagree with a word of that Simon.

Many birders, though by no means all, that I've met around S.E.Asia / China rush in, get their tick and then stomp through looking for more, flushing is fine because it usually means the whole group can see the bird and get it's ID, and another tick, and if that ID can be made via bins rather than by eye alone then that's not an issue.

Those with birding tour groups (usually Brits & Americans) are the worst, they are noisy and bird with little stealth, and even less regard for others already in situ, yet these are usually experienced birders. Some tour companies actually split birders from togs, the birding groups are much faster and cover more ground, the togs are given far more time in fewer locations. It seems they act differently abroad than at home.

Whereas with photographers there is far more emphasis on stealth & patience, and yes togs do often need to get much closer, but then you can't do that without the aforementioned S&P. There are few times that this can be a real issue unless during nesting. Though I should add here that sometimes Chinese photographers' techniques are invasive and something totally different to that usually seen in, for example, HK/Malaysia/Japan which, from what I have seen, tend to follow closer to the UK/USA methods.

It seems to me that both birders-san-camera and birder-photographers could learn from each other.

The etiquette, or lack of, from either birders or togs may be different in the UK/USA with more pressure in numbers from both .. the only time I have birded there was when visiting my parents in the cold of mid-Winter and not another soul was seen !

I'd better say (for the 1000th time ) that I'm not a Birder or a Photographer. I observe the wildlife in my garden, from Sparrowhawks to Mice, and I walk around my local reservoirs when I'm able to. I take a Camera with me on my walks, and I also take Binoculars. I take pictures of wildlife behaviour or poses that interest or amuse me. Because most of the time Birds tend to get close to me (yes, not the other way around) quicker than Mammals, I take more pictures of Birds than Mammals.

I agree with BW about attitudes, and that some (loads, if this forum is representative) Birders tend to look down on Photographers. I also agree that some have a need to pigeon-hole others as either a Birder or a Photographer; which isn't easy with me, as I'm both and neither, and I started as an Angler with a keen interest in Nature.

I have noticed that how I'm treated by Birders (I'm assuming those lugging tripods and scopes around are Birders, as I assume are those with just Binoculars) depends almost entirely on what I'm carrying in my hand. If it's Binoculars (not often, as I can zoom in closer with my Camera), then eye contact and a smile is often forthcoming. If I'm carrying my camera, then they tend to either stare at the ground in front of them or pretend not to notice me. This isn't the reaction of everybody, people are different no matter what their hobby, but generally Birders don't seem to like people carrying cameras.

As I've been a regular visitor to my local reservoirs for over 40 years, and as I've always been observant even as an Angler when I spent 12 hours a day there, I know quite a bit about where to see Bird species and at what time of year. The funny thing is, I spend much more time talking to Anglers at the reservoirs about what I've just seen than I do to Birders. When you consider that Anglers and Birders don't really like each other much as a group (they particularly feel very different about Cormorants), it's a bit odd that Anglers are more likely to be friendly to this person carrying either a camera or binoculars than most Birders.

If I'm honest, I have to say that I find it all quite amusing

I find the worst "offenders" are those on bus trips that have five minutes to photograph that bird on the nest or cliff top with their mobile phones. For some reason they loose the ability to think clearly when they start the tour, diving forward to get a miniscule, blurred image, ignoring everyone standing back to give the birds some space, be it photographer, birder photographer, or birder, just to rush back to their bus. Once again a vast generalisation, I know.

Back when I started birding and more particularly twitching, there was much less access to information and it was controlled by experienced twitchers. Until you were an accepted person you didn't get that access. People served a kind of apprenticeship and learned some skills before being let anywhere near a rarity.

Now any numpty can buy some kit, get a pager or have texts sent to their phone and get on with it. And of course they do!

Much the same has happened to photography with the advent of digital photography, cheap high-zoom cameras and so on. It is still usually the case that someone with a big white lens is a photographer, but the chances are they are actually a birder-photographer. What would you call Steve Young or David Tipling?

It is also certainly the case that some people will complain about anything (maybe even look around for something to complain about?) I've seen dudes on Scilly complain about a line of photographers having taken all the best spots by a hedge beyond which a grotfinch was showing from time to time. Those photographers had waited patiently for several hours, having arrived early enough to ensure they got those spots. There was still room for the others to see the bird but they were annoyed that they weren't immediately ushered into the prime spots as they would have been at the opera.

Over the years I've kicked both birders and photographers out of fields they shouldn't have been in. I've also been present when 300 people couldn't get views of an OBP because the four or five birders (not repeat not photographers) who had taken possession of the gate into the garden and had already seen the bird, wouldn't move on and let others in.

I've seen pretty much every kind of bad behaviour from both camera-toters and ordinary birders of all grades. Running near a rarity is a common fault. Unsurprisingly, it is normally demonstrated by (a) the inexperienced and (b) those who "need" the bird - more often than not these are the same people.....

Many of those who moan about those the pigeonhole as "photographers" are too new to the game to know that the people they mean are long-term birders developing their hobby and with skills the newbies don't even know exist (judging from many of their behaviour.)

I used to carry a scope on a tripod, these days its a camera. I bird in more or less the same way, use the same skills, take the same judgements about where to stand and moving closer. Those judgements are taken in the light of thirty years of watching birds common and rare.

The principle failing of newbies is failing to learn from others and in my view this is worse in those taking up birding later in life, who seem to think nobody can tell them a better way to do anything. The young are less arrogant in this respect.

John