Vertical misalignment (1 Viewer)

perseid28 · Sep 29, 2015

I have a pair of the dielectric-coated Nikon 8x42 ATBs from 2011 that have always given images that are vertically misaligned, and by this I mean that the right image circle shows an area that is noticeably above and to the right of what the left image shows; this is the case even when looking at a blank background. I finally got around to sending the binoculars in for servicing and they came back this afternoon; the work description says that the optical alignment was adjusted. But the images still have the same vertical offset as before, and on closer inspection when I hold the binoculars about a foot from my eyes and look at a horizontal object through the exit pupils I don't see a noticeable discrepancy in the images. Has anyone experienced this before? My only guess is this could be due to the binocular barrels being physically misaligned with each other causing the two eyepiece field stops to be vertically misaligned as well.

WJC · Sep 29, 2015

perseid28 said:
I have a pair of the dielectric-coated Nikon 8x42 ATBs from 2011 that have always given images that are vertically misaligned, and by this I mean that the right image circle shows an area that is noticeably above and to the right of what the left image shows; this is the case even when looking at a blank background. I finally got around to sending the binoculars in for servicing and they came back this afternoon; the work description says that the optical alignment was adjusted. But the images still have the same vertical offset as before, and on closer inspection when I hold the binoculars about a foot from my eyes and look at a horizontal object through the exit pupils I don't see a noticeable discrepancy in the images. Has anyone experienced this before? My only guess is this could be due to the binocular barrels being physically misaligned with each other causing the two eyepiece field stops to be vertically misaligned as well.

Objectives, housings, or prisms, vertical, or horizontal, it matters not; your bino is still out of collimation. A hundred big name importers notwithstanding, the people in the States who know the science behind 3-axis collimation can be counted on one hand with fingers left. Yes, them, too! send them to Cory Suddarth in Henryetta, Oklahoma. And tell that "yetti dirtbag" I sent ya.

Cheers,

Bill

PS If you are looking for collimation error, you will find it. You are focusing inside the bino--a few inches from your nose. That causes YOU to cross YOUR eyes. When you do that, it is YOU who are out of collimation. Pick a distant target, focus on it. Then, if you still have a problem, the problem IS with the instrument.

ceasar · Sep 29, 2015

Is this your binocular?

http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/....html#tab-ProductDetail-ProductTabs-TechSpecs

If so it is discontinued. This link is from Nikon's archived binoculars.

I'm surprised that Nikon did not offer to send you another newer 8x42 of equal value to replace yours rather than repair it. They did that with my 10x32 EDG I after I sent it in to have its covering repaired because it was bubbling and coming loose. Instead they sent me the new 10x32 EDGII model. Their warranty gave them the option to do that.

Bob

perseid28 · Sep 30, 2015

Bob -

It is this model (also discontinued): http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/nikon-products/product-archive/binoculars/monarch-atb-8x42.html. If I recall correctly, the Monarch 5 is the same thing, but renamed and maybe with cosmetic differences.

Nikon did not offer to replace my binoculars, and I'm not really surprised since it seemed to only be a matter of realignment.

Bill - is there a simple test a non-expert can do to determine if the binoculars are aligned to within "reasonable" tolerances?

WJC · Sep 30, 2015

perseid28 said:
Bob -

It is this model (also discontinued): http://www.nikonsportoptics.com/en/nikon-products/product-archive/binoculars/monarch-atb-8x42.html. If I recall correctly, the Monarch 5 is the same thing, but renamed and maybe with cosmetic differences.

Nikon did not offer to replace my binoculars, and I'm not really surprised since it seemed to only be a matter of realignment.

Bill - is there a simple test a non-expert can do to determine if the binoculars are aligned to within "reasonable" tolerances?

Hi Perseid28:

Yes, but you must realize that if I tell ya, I’ll havta kill ya. Big deal; what’s one less birder? :----)

First, though you MUST learn to stare. Your brain will be trying hard to merge the images and staring will be the only way to get the real picture. Next, let your target be 2,000+ yards.

Send me your REAL email address and I will send you my SPIE paper on Collimation vs Conditional Alignment. It will be thorough and let me get off with 2,000 fewer keystrokes. :cat:

My email address is [email protected]

Cheers,

Bill

Highway Dog · Sep 30, 2015

So it seems that it is now collimated.

I see you do not like that the boundary of the view does not match up between each telescope.

Some people just forget about the edges and use what they see with both eyes. I think that all of my binoculars have a little miss-match on the right and left sides. If you focus on near objects, then you are intentionally looking at things that each telescope of the binoculars does not see the same view. You have to concentrate on the center where both eyes see the same thing.

Only when you focus on the farthest distance do you put the field of each telescope so there is the least difference. For your Nikon ATB's, can you tell me how much of the field is not matching? Only when you have set it for the far distance---. Would you say that the strip, the fingernail area width is about 10 percent of the size of the two eye'd matching focus round area?

Thanks, Rob.

perseid28 · Sep 30, 2015

The amount is not great at all--maybe 5%--but when the AFOV is about 45 degrees you notice immediately, even when you are looking straight ahead. Even if the images themselves are vertically aligned, my brain is telling me that something is skewed, and this causes viewing discomfort.

All of my binoculars have some horizontal discrepancy, and my understanding is that this is normal and expected. But the vertical offset is quite distracting; maybe it would be less of an issue if these were wide field binoculars and the field stops were not so readily visible.

WJC · Sep 30, 2015

Perseid28 wrote:

"All of my binoculars have some horizontal discrepancy, and my understanding is that this is normal and expected."

It is only "Normal and Expected" in mis-collimated instruments! Ignoring the edges--if you are looking at a distant target just means the bino is out of collimation but your spatial tolerance is being taken care of by your overworked brain. Things should be collimated with your eyes at rest and the IPD on your bino set properly. Did you not get my PDF?

Bill

Highway Dog · Sep 30, 2015

My brother lives over there in Las Cruces, New Mexico. I have given him several binoculars. He does not care much about all the details with binoculars. I have given him only one daytime binoculars. It is an older 10x32 Kowa. I was trying to guess how it is to use binoculars in sunny New Mexico. That was why I thought a binocular with an exit pupil of 3 millimeters might be better than an 8x42 with an exit pupil of 5.25mm. Of course yours and my eyes will automatically narrow down when we get too much light. (So it might not matter.)

One thing I have noticed about Nikon binoculars (I have had several), is that the eye cups are mostly strong, even stiff. When I have the eyecups down (because I do not use glasses.) they press at the flesh around my eyes. Then I back them up a little, I do not get enough light barrier. For my eyes, the Nikon eyecups of varying models do not cap off light around the edges as well as I would want them to do. If it is happening to you, then your eyes maybe do not rest in view as well as it could be. You get a central bright view, a darkness frame, and finally, light from the side. Does any of this explain your experience? Maybe your viewing is not as relaxed as you want it to be.....

Rob.

perseid28 · Sep 30, 2015

Bill-Not yet. It must be hovering somewhere in cyberspace

perseid28 · Sep 30, 2015

Highway Dog said:
My brother lives over there in Las Cruces, New Mexico. I have given him several binoculars. He does not care much about all the details with binoculars. I have given him only one daytime binoculars. It is an older 10x32 Kowa. I was trying to guess how it is to use binoculars in sunny New Mexico. That was why I thought a binocular with an exit pupil of 3 millimeters might be better than an 8x42 with an exit pupil of 5.25mm. Of course yours and my eyes will automatically narrow down when we get too much light. (So it might not matter.)

One thing I have noticed about Nikon binoculars (I have had several), is that the eye cups are mostly strong, even stiff. When I have the eyecups down (because I do not use glasses.) they press at the flesh around my eyes. Then I back them up a little, I do not get enough light barrier. For my eyes, the Nikon eyecups of varying models do not cap off light around the edges as well as I would want them to do. If it is happening to you, then your eyes maybe do not rest in view as well as it could be. You get a central bright view, a darkness frame, and finally, light from the side. Does any of this explain your experience? Maybe your viewing is not as relaxed as you want it to be.....

Rob.

I moved to Ohio a month ago (I'll have to figure out how to change my location on here), but in my experience New Mexico birding is very easy on binoculars--at least during the daylight hours. The days are very bright because of the combination of low latitude and high elevation, and trees (when they exist at all) are sparser or coniferous and let in more light than the forests farther east. An 8x32 does very well there; since moving to Ohio I've found that my binoculars get more glare, and I think it's because there are more situations where you are in a dark forest with bright skylight breaking through the canopy. If I ever have the $$$ floating around, I could see myself justifying the upgrade to an alpha 8x42 because of the conditions here--in New Mexico I would never have considered upgrading past my Conquest HD.

I agree with your statement about the Nikon eyecups, but I don't think they make that much of an impact on my viewing comfort. I had an 8x32 SE for several years, and even though the shape and height of the fixed rubber eyecups never agreed with my face, it was one of the most comfortable views I've had in a binocular. I learned to cope with the eyecups and I still miss the SE.

My 7x26 Bushnell Elite had a similar issue; the twist up eyecups didn't extend high enough and if I pressed my eyes against the binocular to steady it I experienced blackouts if I moved my eyes around the field of view. My workaround was to modify my grip so that my fingers made a sort of bridge between my forehead and the binoculars. Once again, the view through the binocular was nice enough that I didn't mind the slight inconvenience.

WJC · Sep 30, 2015

perseid28 said:
Bill-Not yet. It must be hovering somewhere in cyberspace

I must go out for a few minutes. If I have you email address, when I return, the PDF will be sent immediately.

Bill

PS My 8x32 SEs will be buried with me!

OPTIC_NUT · Sep 30, 2015

"All of my binoculars have some horizontal discrepancy, and my understanding is that this is normal and expected."

I think you are talking about perallel views being a few inches apart, like your objectives.
This is noticeable and normal at close distance, like 20-40 ft., but at 100 feet or more,
the barrel spacing should be quite un-noticeable compared to the field of view.

peatmoss · Sep 30, 2015

Perseid, it's a real pita, but if I were you I'd send it back to Nikon. I don't know if Nikon does this work in-house or if they farm it out, but if possible, ask if you can speak with the tech and explain what you are seeing. It's possible that their factory tolerances aren't tight enough to satisfy your eyesight.

WJC · Sep 30, 2015

peatmoss said:
Perseid, it's a real pita, but if I were you I'd send it back to Nikon. I don't know if Nikon does this work in-house or if they farm it out, but if possible, ask if you can speak with the tech and explain what you are seeing. It's possible that their factory tolerances aren't tight enough to satisfy your eyesight.

I never had any problems with the factory, nor with "their" repair facility here in the States until the early 90s. Then things fell apart. I couldn't get to a tech, being consistently derailed by their, then, repair manager, who shall remain nameless. It got so bad, I finally stopped trying to get any answers on anything. I know that "manager" has left the company and hope those actually doing the work--farmed out sub-contractors, I BELIEVE--have either grown up optically or been replaced. :cat:

Don't get me wrong; I am a Nikon supporter. My birding glass is a Nikon, my favorite astronomy glass is a Nikon, and I love their refurb program. But, as far as repair: don't pee down my back and tell me it's raining.

Cheers,

Bill

peatmoss · Sep 30, 2015

Bill, that's really a shame about what's going on at Nikon. I suppose nowadays they're more adept at changing a circuit board in a dslr than in aligning lenses. 8-P

WJC · Sep 30, 2015

peatmoss said:
Bill, that's really a shame about what's going on at Nikon. I suppose nowadays they're more adept at changing a circuit board in a dslr than in aligning lenses. 8-P

Hi Pete:

I haven't been at the bench in 7 years and haven't been in touch with the repair department for considerably longer, so I can't say what the current situation is. But it's plain that every company is cutting corners any way they can. So while I won't offer any speculation of my own, I know what I believe and what I experienced after the early 90s.

cheers,

Bill

Binastro · Sep 30, 2015

I am not happy if a good binocular has even 1% displacement of the two fields at 1 mile plus.
The binoculars I use have essentially nil error as far as I can judge by eyes alone.

P.S.
There are military specs for permitted collimation errors for the U.S., U.K. and Russia. Russia seemed to use the tightest tolerances.

Every binocular has errors, even if arcseconds.

Each tube will have small alignment errors, seen when star testing.

ceasar · Sep 30, 2015

Perseid,

I live in NE Pennsylvania and I notice that you are now in Ohio. When I contacted Nikon about the warranty service on my 10x32 EDG I, I contacted them through their Eastern Office which is located in Melville, NY.

Nikon Inc.
1300 Walt Whitman Road
MELVILLE, NY 11747
USA
1-800-645-6687

I received an e-mail from them on the day I called acknowledging my call from an SRO Support technician who stayed in contact with me for the next couple of days to arrange sending the binocular to the Los Angeles office for an estimate on the repairs. She arranged to have a shipping label prepared for me from my local UPS store when I dropped them off for shipping. I was updated by e-mail for each step of the process, including their decision to replace the binocular rather than repair it, up to the date the replacement was shipped to me by UPS.

Bob

PS: My costs were zero, except for the shipping insurance I purchased on the Binocular when I sent it by UPS to Los Angeles.

WJC · Sep 30, 2015

ceasar said:
Perseid,

I live in NE Pennsylvania and I notice that you are now in Ohio. When I contacted Nikon about the warranty service on my 10x32 EDG I, I contacted them through their Eastern Office which is located in Melville, NY.

Nikon Inc.
1300 Walt Whitman Road
MELVILLE, NY 11747
USA
1-800-645-6687

I received an e-mail from them on the day I called acknowledging my call from an SRO Support technician who stayed in contact with me for the next couple of days to arrange sending the binocular to the Los Angeles office for an estimate on the repairs. She arranged to have a shipping label prepared for me from my local UPS store when I dropped them off for shipping. I was updated by e-mail for each step of the process, including their decision to replace the binocular rather than repair it, up to the date the replacement was shipped to me by UPS.

Bob

"No Fault Warranties" at work. They buy in such quantities (and at such prices) that is is cheaper to replace than repair. What happens though when the OEMs techs, over time, loose their skills? Who will handle the repair, then.

Having ten times the binos I could use up in a lifetime, I don't have a horse in this race. But I think it is something to THINK about. Eventually, we will have to settle for whatever the manufacturer wants to give us. And with memories and concerns growing short, we'll be glad to get it. Of course, the bragging about what someone got on a bino that cost the price of a sandwich will go on unabated.

I've loved all my Nikons. But as time goes on, we should accept Reagan's philosophy: "trust, but verify."

Bill

PS "vertical displacement" is often called "step" by those who must work with it and "dipvergence" by the engineering types, those of the German persuasion, and the just plain pedantic. I thought you might find that useful. For me, "vertical displacement" works just fine, ona counta . . . that's what it bloody well is!

Vertical misalignment (1 Viewer)

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