Kestrel Lesson required - SW France (1 Viewer)

I was making a tour of the lake today and suddenly surrounded by Kestrels! And after 10 minutes of hunting there were none. At least a couple were eating insects in flight and thinking this was my best chance to get a picture of their claws I tried but failed!

I managed to take some pictures but of which bird or birds I have no idea.

I can see a lot of features of each type but I can't make my mind up - autosuggestion wishing etc so need some fresh eyes.

I can see a lot of P10 longer than P7, I can see some open white faces (just female common?), I can see some black wing tips but I don't think black or deep enough, one of the hovering birds does have a hint of light claw but again could be me, hint of greyish rump, pointed tail...

There are about 20 pictures.

Anyway, for this time of year its a good exercise...

next

and some more

finally

The mere fact that they were flocking may be suggestive of Lesser on it's own?



A

Look common to me

My eyes aren't good enough, but for others with good eyesight, this might help:

Lesser on left - Common on right

Kes 13 for example seems to have no eyeline nor 16

most are unIDable, those which show primaries well are all Lesser

I agree with Tom! It sounds simple enough - yellow claws or black, P10 length vs. P7 - but getting photos that show these features clearly are not easy & many things can cloud the id.


Shane

Awesome - I had thought that they were candidates! I was going to write 'clearly' thought but as per my original post I was getting confused. I had found ChrisKten wing formula on a previous discussion on Common vs Lesser post and one where on the photo I had come to the 'wrong' conclusion.

Can we take this one step further and say lets assume they were all Lesser - assuming that none are definately common (although could be) - but lets just say they were all Lesser and examine if there are there other features that could be used for id, for instance

a)in the first couple of photos the upperwing pattern shows white edges to the primaries - I had clocked something in Forsman so will go back and check
b)the eye pattern - I noted above - lacking a black stripe
c)the hovering bird shows the tail pattern but not the back sadly so I don't think there is enough to differentiate on pattern, with the dead bird we had in Luz a couple of years ago the back pattern was a feature
d)the tail - some really do a long centre tail - 'kes 6'

Or are these too marginal?

Anyway, really chuffed but just wondered if could use as educational or whether best left...

Sorry, bit late seeing this thread.

Yes, what Tom said.

Guess it's the time of year, but about 30 'Kestrels' turned up in the hills here (lower Apennines, Prov. Piacenza, Italy) over the past couple of days and abruptly disappeared yesterday afternoon, presume heading for the Med. Assumed they were probably Lessers because they were hawking and hovering for invertebrates in a mobile and flexible group over undulating grass stubble meadows. The hovering confused me because a couple of sources (forgotten which) state that this is not typical. After several exciting hours, and with the help of photos, I concluded they were indeed all Lessers, of which a few pairs breed in the Po plains near Parma, about 60 kms away as the falcon flies.

Finding one or two adult and a couple of (I assume) older 2cy males in the group was a good start. I eventually almost convinced myself that a combination of features should allow juvs and females to be distinguished from Commons: the longer p10, in effect very slightly blunter wingtips; distinct near-white cheek contrasting with the neat dark 'moustache' vertically below the eye (but less pale in some birds perhaps older females?); grey rump (not juvenile females apparently) can be seen if birds hovering; almost fine-barred pattern on female scapulars instead of spots or blotches gives a different overall impression as birds turn and bank; generally paler underwing. The adult males and possible males did seem to show the deep chevron-shaped terminal tail band, but this feature seems complicated by state of moult: at least one of the adult males was in the middle of tail moult so the outer feathers were progressively shorter, making the tail diamond-shape at the end, and I recall seeing Commons looking similar at some times. But I don't have much experience with Lessers and have doubts if I'd right now be able to sort out an adult female on its own, especially live in the field!

Re pale claws: impossible 'live' in flight, you need one to perch on an overhead cable for a while so you can see the non-black claws, or excellent in-flight images.

Brian

Thanks Brian,

They are rare here although do turn up occasionally. The original thought was that they were reverse migrants from Spain (nearest breeding), which still might be the case for the majority, but we had a dead bird which ringed in the nest in the Crau - 3 years ago. The increase in sightings does also coincide with an increase in breeding populations in Languedoc and the Herault - we are not on an obvious migration route from those areas though.

Anyway, I think I am really going to have to arm myself for future sightings. I, like you, would not be confident without photos particularly on flying non male adult birds. Its interesting that you mentioned hunting behavoir - these birds came in over an overgrown meadow (I regularly see Common Kes in this area but NEVER hunting over this area - nothing to stop them but an interesting observation nonetheless) and swirled around in twos and threes, albeit that there were only 9, eating on the wing (have heard previously can be a pointer although not diagnostic). As it happens Dragnil and I had a look at the pictures last night and we thought that a couple of the shots might actually show 'lighter' claws - one of the hovering shots sort of shows a hind claw which isn't black...

A couple of the face shots look good for id and correspond to Forsman.

Post-breeding, pre-migration dispersal to check out possible new breeding areas?

Niels

And from today!!

I really can't be sure that these are the same birds as the other day as these are clearly 2CY males! No moustaches - I can't find a photo the other day without moustache nor with upperwing markings.

Really great to refind or find with Dragnil today.

All Lesser
2&4 look full adult

njlarsen said:

Post-breeding, pre-migration dispersal to check out possible new breeding areas?

Niels

Click to expand...

A lot of the French population go north west at this time of year to the causses in the Cévennes area before the real migration, it looks like some are trying out your area too Rosbifs!
Nice adult male too:t:

Great had't checked book to verify ages - thought there was some way to go on the blue in the wings hence my thought 2 cy. Now are we agreed no adult males in original photos???

Birds still present which makes a week albeit that only saw 4 this morning. On Wednesday evening counted 13 which is fantastic. Also in the same field have 'upto' 18 Ortolan Buntings although personally counted 9 this morning - with Dragnil.

He also spotted a low flying Black Stork!!

Some great days birding. These are now the pretty much the longest staying Lessers for our region and possibly the only males!