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scopes-does size matter? (2 Viewers)

edwincjones

Well-known member
Coming from the astronomy side, bigger is almost always better;
but does this count in birding spotting scopes?

Larger seem better at light gathering, higher mag; but also less portable.

What sizes are more popular with birders?

thanks,
edj
 
Birding scopes range from 50 mm to 95 mm. Both small and big ones are popular. Small ones as travel scopes or when you hike a lot, big ones for long distances, low light and digiscoping. The compromise is in-between, so a popular size is 65. I don't know any figures, but I guess that most scopes sold are big ones, 80+
 
Edj, post 1,
The answer to your question: "does size matter?, is simple: yes it does.
Backpacking in the mountains to spot mountain birds and animal life requires another scope than stationary observation from a tripod along the shore of a lake or the seashore. And low light conditions ask for a telescope with a large objective and variable magnification from let's say 15-40x.
Gijs van Ginkel
 
Don't make the mistake of buying a fixed x35 or similar, it will make finding woodland or forest birds much harder, buy a zoom.
 
Don't make the mistake of buying a fixed x35 or similar, it will make finding woodland or forest birds much harder, buy a zoom.

Hi,

and why would it be more difficult to find a bird in the wider field of view of a 30x fixed EP instead of the tunnel vision view at the low mag end of a standard zoom EP?

Some data (Kowa because I had their page open):

TSN-663 and 30 wide: 42m/1000m
TSN-663 and 20-60x normal zoom: 33-18m/1000m

TSN-833 and 30 wide: 42m/1000m
TSN-883 and 25-60x wide zoom: 42-23m/1000m

Even the Kowa wide zoom everybody raves about just reaches the 42m fov of the 30 wide... and at 25x vs. 30x in the fixed mag EP. Of course it has the option of higher mags... but this is more for sea or raptor watch...

Joachim
 
If we are talking about just one scope then you have a trade-off.

50-60 mm scopes = Smaller size/lighter weight but with a lower magnification range (assuming zoom eyepiece here) as the focal length of the smaller scopes is less than that of the larger objective models.

70-80 mm+ = Higher magnification range/greater light gathering ability at any given magnification but heavier and more cumbersome in comparison.

I own one 50, two 60's and an 82 mm scope. The 50 mm and 60 mm get taken out way more often than the 82 but the 82 comes in handy during winter when I am trying to ID waterfowl at greater distances. I also do 99% of my phonescoping with the two smaller scopes as well.
 
There are also a few 100 mm scopes out there if memory serves.

I never saw the need for them personally but others may be in a different environment or have different expectations for their gear where that large of an aperture (and the subsequently higher magnification) would be needed or beneficial.

Personally, I find that atmospheric conditions play too big of a role for me to want magnifications greater than the usual max of 45-60x. At some point in the magnification range all the extra magnification does is increase the heat shimmer instead of increasing the detail of the object in question.
 
I think that Pentax, Optolyth etc. made 100mm spotting scopes.

Size does matter.

In astronomy I found that the 20.5 inch Newtonian was too big. The 12.5 inch Dall Kirkham and 14.25 inch Newtonian were used more.
 
what about the one 95mm- too big & heavy or just cost issue?

Really depends on your type of birding and your needs. If cost is no issue, I'd indeed recommend to buy two (I would buy the ATX95 and a 50 mm). If costs matter, you need to think about your priorities and decide which compromise suits you best.

I started with a Nikon ED50, later I added a Swaro 80 mm scope.

In hindsight, starting with the small Nikon was a smart move, it was not expensive, high quality, and I still have use for it now, even I now own a bigger and much more expensive scope. I use the Nikon when I go for birding/hiking in the mountains (on a monopod) and when I go travelling and might not use the scope a lot or if portability matters (e.g. tropical forest, mountains)

I use the Swaro when birding wetlands and lakes at home, and I take it on trips when I expect to use it a lot (wetlands, open areas).
 
These days, when asked for a scope recommendation for a committed birder, I always suggest starting with a high quality 50mm travel scope [unless the plan is primarily sea watching]. It will do the job for most situations, costs less, requires a smaller (and potentially less expensive) tripod, and thus is all around easier to deal with when learning to use and manage a scope in the field. I like the Nikon 50 ED with 27x fixed eyepiece.

The little scope may turn out to work well enough for everything desired. In that case, the good news is that it is super convenient and low in cost relative to other solutions that might have been chosen. If it turns out not to be good for everything, the good news is that it will still likely get a lot of use (e.g. for travel, casual outings...) no matter what additional scope is purchased.

If, after making full use of the 50 and getting to know it thoroughly, it proves not to do everything desired (e.g. allow for high magnifications, bright in low light, overall viewing/handling comfort), a bigger scope may be warranted. In that case I'd go with a 80+ mm model, and skip the middle sizes, in order to get a substantial difference in capability as compared to the already very capable 50 mm scope. To be effective, this scope will require a much larger and more expensive tripod and head (possibly ~$1000).

My mainstay scope is a Nikon 78ED with 30x eyepiece. I also carry the 25-75x zoom for rare use. I use the 78 most often with a light carbon fiber tripod and head that has a shoulder strap and a strap that goes around my chest to stabilize the shoulder strap. I do a lot of scoping from roads near my car, and I take my scope on a lot of 1-3 mile walks/hikes away from the car as well. It isn't as light as my dedicated travel/hiking rig for the 50ED, but I like a big scope (easy view, easy to get my hands around) when I can manage it, just as I prefer 42 mm binos except when size and weight are of overwhelming importance.

--AP
 
Like many have said, viewing conditions and the type of birding you do first and foremost determine what is going to be the useful magnification range, and that in turn determines what is the optimum scope aperture.

I largely agree with Alexis's advice when it comes to birders who live in the continental US or central Europe and who don't do a lot of sea watching, winter birding or other long distance stuff. However, as a birder living in and birding where the sun rises and sets slowly and never gets that high in the sky, I get stable air a bit more often, often view over great distances, and consequently prioritize larger apertures and higher magnifications than most of the posters here.

For my kind of birding, size definitely matters, and from the way edj. phrases his question I take it that he does not mean whether size matters for portability or cost, which are sort of obvious points, but for image quality and ability to ID birds. For this latter, my history with scopes started with a mediocre 60 mm scope (Mirador) with a fixed 27x eyepiece but on a pretty good tripod, and evolved to the same ED 78 A Nikon Alexis uses, first with a 38x Wide eyepiece and later with a 25-75x zoom. The step up from the 60 to 78 together with a large jump in optical quality (ED glass, much better corrected optics) was quite dramatic, and the bigger scope gave hugely better views under every and all conditions.

My next scope was a Nikon ED 82 A, which was a worthwhile step up from the 78, but not particularly dramatic. Here, most of the improvement came from the 82 being a lower-aberration sample than the 78, and the rest of the improvement came from better contrast, brightness and less stray light problems due to improved baffling and multi coatings in the newer 82. The 4 mm increase in aperture does help in resolving power, but this is a step small enough to easily vanish among other variables, such as sample differences.

My present scope is a 95, and it also happens to be better corrected for optical aberrations than any of my previous scopes, or, for that matter, just about any other scope I have ever tested. This one is quite a bit better than the 82 or 78, both at lower magnifications and high. A well-corrected large scope provides a better image also in poor seeing, and the difference in image quality is obvious even at magnifications of 30x or so. We rather often get air stable enough that I get a visible benefit from the maximum magnifications of my zoom (72x), and this is not just at early mornings or evenings or overcast days, but also during passing clouds on partly cloudy days.

I just acquired a dedicated teleconverter for my scope that gives it a magnification range of 50-120x. For birding, with a 95 mm scope, I still think that 120x is probably well over the sensible diminishing returns threshold, but my initial experience has been that I will be using mags up to at least 100x for actual benefit at times. The scope with the extender weighs close to 2.5 kg and sits on a pretty hefty CF tripod with a good fluid head, but with a scope harness it is nicely portable. This setup gives me two options: 50-120x for good to excellent seeing and large distances, and 30-72x for mediocre to poor seeing. Changing between the two setups takes less than a minute, and both are equally easy to use.

Kimmo
 
...
will other manufactures also go this big?

edj

Yep! The commercial success of the Swaro X95 made other alpha producers to consider >95mm options...;)

Having used 100mm scopes since many years, I think that the "problem" with these weren't so much the dimensions and weight, but some details and not so high image quality of many samples. If you increase aperture and image quality remains high, you will get a successful "big" spotting scope...o:D

See http://www.pt-ducks.com/cr-telescopes.htm#Test_of_my_present_preferred_cr-telescopes for some good "big" solutions...
 
Hi,

and why would it be more difficult to find a bird in the wider field of view of a 30x fixed EP instead of the tunnel vision view at the low mag end of a standard zoom EP?

Some data (Kowa because I had their page open):

TSN-663 and 30 wide: 42m/1000m
TSN-663 and 20-60x normal zoom: 33-18m/1000m

TSN-833 and 30 wide: 42m/1000m
TSN-883 and 25-60x wide zoom: 42-23m/1000m

Even the Kowa wide zoom everybody raves about just reaches the 42m fov of the 30 wide... and at 25x vs. 30x in the fixed mag EP. Of course it has the option of higher mags... but this is more for sea or raptor watch...

Joachim

I know what I'm talking about, I have a fixed x35 x 78mm , much better to be able to zoom out which increases the field of view to find your object.

A
 
I know what I'm talking about, I have a fixed x35 x 78mm , much better to be able to zoom out which increases the field of view to find your object.

A

Only if your zoom gives a wider true FOV than your fixed, which is often not the case. Did you read jring's post (i.e. see the numbers there)?

--AP
 
As - unfortunately - with most things relating to optics, the more choice the better. I intended to sell my Swaro ATS 65 when i bought the Kowa 883, but couldn't bring myself to do it. I'm very glad i didn't as the Swaro is still a regular companion on longer hikes and (which i don't think has been mentioned) international travel. A bit more robust than the magnesium-bodied Kowa, easier to fit in hand luggage and plenty good enough in good light for nearly all circumstances.
Take into account lighter tripod, lighter head and lighter scope and a good carrying system - this is my regular summer set-up. The Kowa on its heavier legs and head is fantastic for estuaries and sea watching, but i generally avoid toting it more than about 5 or 6 miles in a day.
I'd agree with the suggestion of starting small then buying big when the (invevitable) time comes though. Not sure if i'd go as small as 50mm, but that's a matter of choice (and price)
 
Last edited:
Hi,

starting small is a good idea - the question is how small. If you intend to later buy a big 80mm+ Scope, a 50mm scope is a good starter and will be useful for longer hikes or travel later as Alexis and Paddy pointed out.

If one starts new and is not sure that one will buy a large scope later, sth good in the 60-65mm range is probably a good idea as there is a good chance that you won't feel the need to upgrade this...

Joachim
 
I'm in the fortunate position of having two scopes - a 88mm Kowa & a 50mm Nikon. If I'm visiting somewhere where I will either do a lot of walking or where I'm less likely to use a scope (e.g. woodland) I take the small scope (if at all) mounted on a lightweight tripod. However, where I know I'll be doing little more than stepping out of the car to scan for waders, passing seabirds etc., I take the large beast. However, with one of the harnesses now available on the market carrying a heavy scope shouldn't be too onerous for people with a reasonable degree of fitness. An alternative used by some I know is to get your partner to carry the big un ... I'd guess that I use the small scope about 70% of the time. As I've observed before, the best scope is always the one that you've bothered to take with you.
 
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