Nikon 8x30E11 (1 Viewer)

The Brock illusion.

brocknroller said:

Pesto,

Just when I thought Henry had it nailed! Even though he's an artist not a scientist, people take his word as gospel, so his explanation would never have otherwise been questioned if you hadn't, so thanks for confusing things.

The Moon Illusion, now that's a conundrum.

I've read that some people don't experience the Moon Illusion, and I would imagine that just as some people don't see the roof magnification illusion, some probably don't notice that the image through porros at closer distances is smaller than roofs. And that's okay, people are wired differently. The only thing that really bugs me is when people don't see or experience what others do and then imply that everybody else besides them and those who agree with them are wrong/nuts. Six out of the seven people on my Ignore List and there for that reason. We should embrace the diversity of opinions not oppress them.

Romesco

Click to expand...

Rathaus said:

I took a selection of Habichts and my new 8x30 EII. I think I'll just blab a bit about some of my observations.

Here's a snapshot of the EII infested by habichts. Three newish habichts (1x 10x40, one new current military DF 8x30, and one newish 8x30 traditional) , and two late 80s early 90s habichts, 8 and 10x.

Click to expand...

Hi Rathaus, How do compare the eye relief and ease of eye placement when using EII vs the new 8X30 Habicht? I don't wear glasses and find the EII very easy to look through. Is the Habicht easy to use as well with respect to eye placement? Yesterday I compared the 8X30 EII with UV HD 10X42 at a lake looking at Beavers and Roseate Spoonbills till dark and it was very hard to find a few areas where the UV HD was better. The glorious 3D Depth of EII more than compensated for the few things Leica was better at. EII's only deficiency I noticed was veiling glare.

Fwiw, Porros with their typical external focusing actually have slightly increased magnification at closer distances because the focal length of the objectives lengthens as the distance to the subject shortens. Roofs with their typical internal focusing pretty much have a constant magnification at any subject distance. But I suppose that our perception can play tricks on us. Where is Elkcub when you need him?

Subzero888 said:

Hi Rathaus, How do compare the eye relief and ease of eye placement when using EII vs the new 8X30 Habicht? I don't wear glasses and find the EII very easy to look through. Is the Habicht easy to use as well with respect to eye placement? Yesterday I compared the 8X30 EII with UV HD 10X42 at a lake looking at Beavers and Roseate Spoonbills till dark and it was very hard to find a few areas where the UV HD was better. The glorious 3D Depth of EII more than compensated for the few things Leica was better at. EII's only deficiency I noticed was veiling glare.

Click to expand...

Good question....I don't wear glasses either. You may notice that I put the big eye cups on the little Habicht. With these fitted, there wasn't a lot in it. I'd have to go back and check it critically. Put it this way....It didn't enter my mind at the time either way...except the Habicht eye cups were better. Eye fatigue was another matter.

I know I need to get down my comparative Habicht impressions too.

As a quick summary - from my two hours of viewing so far..on that day. These are Just my own views and opinions. Everyone will vary.


Habicht 8x30 vs Nikon EII

The Habicht has significantly better contrast (aircraft tails and bird wing tips....everything)
The Nikon looks washed out slightly dull in direct comparison. The Nikon is good in isolation, but the Habicht is just in another class here.

Habicht is sharper on axis, has higher resolution/contrast (individual razor wire definition and individual blade sweep and minute shading from 30 yards)
Even The yellow tint 25yr old habichts were at least as good as the new black nikons here.

Habicht is brighter. It just is. And it's Not always a good thing. Sometimes I need sunnies for this bino.

Habicht sweetspot is at least as large, despite the larger fov of the Nikon, which falls off pretty fast 2/3 out.

Nikon has a better depth of field up to 50 metres.

The Nikon may have a deeper 3D image up close....it's very very good...yet landing aircraft clearly popped more realistically through the habichts. Probably the resolution. The 3D scaling may also change depending on distance. Heaps of plane landings in differing light conditions, and the Habich simply provides a higher definition and more startling image every time.

No CA on the day in either to my eyes.

Ease of view...immediate ease of view is similar but I'd give it to the Nikon with its big fov. After a minute or so, there's nothing between them in the ease of view to me. After half an hour or more, the Habicht was slightly more relaxing to my eyes, and more so the longer I viewed...less fatigue, as though it was better collimated...though the Nikon appeared to have perfect collimation.

Build quality...I see nothing obviously wrong with the build of the Nikon externally, but everybody cautions about its sealing and fragility. No problem here with the Habicht which is sealed and demonstrated tough through its long history. The fact that my 25year old habichts are performing perfectly is testimony to their build. I have 50-60 yr old habichts which are untouched and function perfectly. No grit or moisture or mould in there. The 35yr warranty is good too.

Value
Tough one this....I think here for me the Nikon cost 3/5 of a Habicht. Both great value without paying silly money. But a sealed and tough bino with that monster warranty and factory backing takes the cake.

Let's get real...the Nikon is far more bin than anyone needs. Within ten years my visual acuity may no longer see the advantages of the Habicht...
Yet, this is a place for optical nerds and geeks who enjoy the delights of splitting optical hairs. At this point for me, the Habicht is clearly the better Bino. The Nikon has no glaring weakness...though probably for me, the stunning contrast and associated razor like resolution of the Habicht is where it clearly pulls ahead of the Nikon.
Other viewing sessions may reveal different outcomes, I'm cognisant of that.

Rathaus

Rathaus said:

At this point for me, the Habicht is clearly the better Bino. The Nikon has no glaring weakness...though probably for me, the stunning contrast and associated razor like resolution of the Habicht is where it clearly pulls ahead of the Nikon.

Click to expand...

Perfect summary. Other than the large field of view the Nikon EII has little to recommend it IMO. Of the two 8x Nikons, the 8x30 EII and the Nikon 8x32 SE, the 8X32 SE is clearly the better binocular, it's better optically AND mechanically. The SE has better transmission (although still clearly below that of current Habicht 8x30s), has a far larger sweetspot, and is sealed better.

Optically it's closer to the Habicht, but not *that* close.

Hermann

peatmoss said:

Fwiw, Porros with their typical external focusing actually have slightly increased magnification at closer distances because the focal length of the objectives lengthens as the distance to the subject shortens. Roofs with their typical internal focusing pretty much have a constant magnification at any subject distance. But I suppose that our perception can play tricks on us. Where is Elkcub when you need him?

Click to expand...

peatmoss,

This is a perfect example of what I mentioned on another thread about how science has its limits when it comes to investigating human perception/behavior. You can show that something is scientifically valid and yet people will tell you that's not what they see or experience. So we can't offhandedly dismiss people's observations as wrong/nuts, because they don't mesh with what non-human devices or the equations of physics say they should be, or even worse because they don't match your own perceptions/experience (not saying that you are, but others do),

Brock

Hermann said:

Perfect summary. Other than the large field of view the Nikon EII has little to recommend it IMO. Of the two 8x Nikons, the 8x30 EII and the Nikon 8x32 SE, the 8X32 SE is clearly the better binocular, it's better optically AND mechanically. The SE has better transmission (although still clearly below that of current Habicht 8x30s), has a far larger sweetspot, and is sealed better.

Optically it's closer to the Habicht, but not *that* close.

Hermann

Click to expand...

I would like to use one of the Habichts just to see what all the enthusiasm is about but I won't order one because of their indifferent ergonomics.

I'm not sure I will be able to get along with their eye relief; small hard eye-cups and narrow fields of view.

I don't want to pay that kind of price without getting an even break on whether or not I will be able to use these binoculars with the same ease and comfort I have enjoyed with my 8x30 EII for the last 15 years.

It is too bad that Swarovski did nothing about these issues after improving the coatings and glass in them.

Nikon's EII also received improvements in the coatings on their glass over the years and an improved covering but ease of use is not as big an issue with them as it is with the Habichts.

Bob

I agree with Bob. I bought a Habicht 8x30 a couple of years ago but did not keep it---I was not strong enough to be able .....to turn its focuser (the stiffest I have ever seen by a large margin....); also poor glare control, which along with its poor ergos, was a deal breaker for me.

Forgot to say that I have kept my EII 8x30---it does not see much use these days, but it's a set that imo every bino enthusiast should possess.

ceasar said:

I'm not sure I will be able to get along with their eye relief; small hard eye-cups and narrow fields of view.

It is too bad that Swarovski did nothing about these issues after improving the coatings and glass in them.
Bob

Click to expand...

They probably didn't change them because they aren't big problems like you suggest.

Eye relief-
I noticed no huge difference in eye relief....in fact I probably had to get in closer to the Nikon to get its full fov...which is one of its selling points.

Field of view -
The Habicht has a great field of view so I have no idea what you are referring to here. I'm talking about actually using binoculars in the field....not looking at some spec sheets. As I stated, I had a full jumbo jet in view with the Nikon, with a very small bit to spare on each side. Switch to the Habicht, and the Habicht fits the 747 with virtually no spare fov, yet more of that 747 is within the sweet spot.
Let us say that the Nikon has a larger peripheral fov, and the Habicht has a larger sweet spot fov.
I would summarise this by saying that in the field, the habichts fov has never left me wanting. It disappears and is not thought about. Always a good sign.

Eye cups -
As I showed, if you can't get used to the small black ones (I have, but technique is involved), then you just put on some GA eye cups. Couldn't be simpler. These are far superior to either the original Leather habicht cups, or the the floppy rubber cups of the Nikon.

Stiff focuser -
This is a silly myth. The focuser loosens beautifully with use. If it doesn't you get to sit down with your habichts and play with its focuser for a couple of hours. Perfection! Some perspective - my 90s habichts are far easier to turn than the Nikon.

I hope that clarifys some of your concerns.

I want to clarify that I believe the Nikon is probably the best bin I've seen for its price. But for a bit more money, the Habicht is also out performing the likes of my 8.5x42 SV in the same areas that it out performed the nikons. So, There is no slight on the Nikon here. It is a brilliant bin.

Rathaus

John Dracon said:

When high quality binoculars are compared, I believe many times the comparisons are almost subliminally affected by ergonomic factors.

John

Click to expand...

I agree with you here. It's why I stated that if I was forced to only use the nikons for the rest of my days, I'd be a very happy chap. They have no outstanding area of weakness, and my brain would accomodate them very quickly. I'd just be left with lovely views.

It's only in the strange environment of analysing and often navel gazing ....where we interchange bins quickly...that the differences really stand out.

I see why the EII is so popular....for me it represents a very sensible point after which surplus expenditure gains a very diminished (and often no) return optically.

Rathaus said:

....
Stiff focuser -
This is a silly myth. The focuser loosens beautifully with use. If it doesn't you get to sit down with your habichts and play with its focuser for a couple of hours. Perfection! Some perspective - my 90s habichts are far easier to turn than the Nikon.

Rathaus

Click to expand...

This "myth" must be up there with the Moon Illusion, because the number of people who report the Habichts having stiff focusers, even those who have owned them a while, is fairly high. Many more than those who report smooth focusers, though there have been a few others besides you.

My understanding is that the focuser stiffness with the Habichts is due to the WP sealing. The Habichts are WP but they don't have internal focusing like Swaro roofs, the rubber seals rub tightly against the focuser tubes to keep out moisture, mold, dust, pollen, etc., and this creates friction. If your Habicht focuser is no longer at least somewhat stiff, the seals could have deteriorated, or perhaps yours wasn't WP to begin with. If it's a WP model, it shouldn't wrack in and out easier than the EII, which has no seals.

Brock

brocknroller said:

This "myth" must be up there with the Moon Illusion, because the number of people who report the Habichts having stiff focusers, even those who have owned them a while, is fairly high. Many more than those who report smooth focusers, though there have been a few others besides you.

My understanding is that the focuser stiffness with the Habichts is due to the WP sealing. The Habichts are WP but they don't have internal focusing like Swaro roofs, the rubber seals rub tightly against the focuser tubes to keep out moisture, mold, dust, pollen, etc., and this creates friction. If your Habicht focuser is no longer at least somewhat stiff, the seals could have deteriorated, or perhaps yours wasn't WP to begin with. If it's a WP model, it shouldn't wrack in and out easier than the EII, which has no seals.

Brock

Click to expand...

Sir
You speak the truth in these matters re the focus mechanism. I haven't dip tested my older habichts to 4 metres, but all of them, including the 50+yr old ones are optically pristine internally. If any of my other bins are still like that in 2070 I'll be impressed.
Rathaus

Ps. I forgot to mention the fact that I possess the hands and fingers of a silverback gorilla with Acromelagy Syndrome. I like the Habicht focuser right out of the box. It feels like a top piece of machinery to me.
I think your bushwhacker toy might help my hands fit the nikons better too.

Rathaus said:

Sir
You speak the truth in these matters re the focus mechanism. I haven't dip tested my older habichts to 4 metres, but all of them, including the 50+yr old ones are optically pristine internally. If any of my other bins are still like that in 2070 I'll be impressed.
Rathaus

Ps. I forgot to mention the fact that I possess the hands and fingers of a silverback gorilla with Acromelagy Syndrome. I like the Habicht focuser right out of the box. It feels like a top piece of machinery to me.
I think your bushwhacker toy might help my hands fit the nikons better too.

Click to expand...

Good to hear that even the 50-year-old non-WP Habichts have held up all these years. A Habicht owner recently posted somewhere (can't find his post) that he found a Crystalline Entity living in one tube of his Habichts. He sent the porros to Swaro, which removed the entity and sent it back into space, but lo and behold, sometime after, it came back!

If you think you have gorilla fingers, you should see the photo of Alexis's thumbs underneath his 8x20 Leica compacts. It's like watching 10 clowns fit into a Volkswagen Beetle (the original). Haven't seen Alexis post in a while, I heard he got called over to Holland to plug a big hole in a damn. :smoke:

Brock

brocknroller said:

If you think you have gorilla fingers, you should see the photo of Alexis's thumbs underneath his 8x20 Leica compacts. It's like watching 10 clowns fit into a Volkswagen Beetle (the original). Haven't seen Alexis post in a while, I heard he got called over to Holland to plug a big hole in a damn. :smoke:

Brock

Click to expand...

No no....I actually possess a pair of giant gorilla hands. I acquired them for a fair price at a flea market in Rhodesia. I have bequeathed them to The Royal College Of Surgeons, but for now they sit resplendent atop my mantle piece. :smoke:

Rathaus

Just wanted to bump the 8X30 EII thread lest someone opens a new one I still use my EII regularly and like it a lot.

A few months back I took it to work to compare it with a Nikon Monarch 7 8X42 a colleague had. We were looking at buildings, traffic and other landmarks from the 20th floor office window. The Monarch 7 was very nice to use with the bigger objective lens and looked very bright. A few other colleagues who have never used binoculars seriously also took part in the impromptu test and overwhelmingly liked the Monarch over the EII. I tried to point out the FOV and the 3-D image of the EII, but the scenery was very bland for those qualities to stand out. Tells me where you use a binocular for comparison is quite important.

Subzero888 said:

Just wanted to bump the 8X30 EII thread lest someone opens a new one I still use my EII regularly and like it a lot.

A few months back I took it to work to compare it with a Nikon Monarch 7 8X42 a colleague had. We were looking at buildings, traffic and other landmarks from the 20th floor office window. The Monarch 7 was very nice to use with the bigger objective lens and looked very bright. A few other colleagues who have never used binoculars seriously also took part in the impromptu test and overwhelmingly liked the Monarch over the EII. I tried to point out the FOV and the 3-D image of the EII, but the scenery was very bland for those qualities to stand out. Tells me where you use a binocular for comparison is quite important.

Click to expand...

I have experience with both and ergonomics has a lot to do with a nice
view. The Monarch 7 is a very nice binocular.
It is one that could be your only binocular, and you will not miss a thing.

Jerry

NDhunter said:

I have experience with both and ergonomics has a lot to do with a nice
view. The Monarch 7 is a very nice binocular.
It is one that could be your only binocular, and you will not miss a thing.

Jerry

Click to expand...

The two Monarch 7s I tried had mechanical issues; one had some vertical misalignment and the other had an uneven focuser that required constant readjustment of the diopter. The Monarch 7s certainly have fine optics and comfortable ergos, but I don't doubt that the build quality of the E II is superior.

Subzero888 said:

Just wanted to bump the 8X30 EII thread lest someone opens a new one I still use my EII regularly and like it a lot.

A few months back I took it to work to compare it with a Nikon Monarch 7 8X42 a colleague had. We were looking at buildings, traffic and other landmarks from the 20th floor office window. The Monarch 7 was very nice to use with the bigger objective lens and looked very bright. A few other colleagues who have never used binoculars seriously also took part in the impromptu test and overwhelmingly liked the Monarch over the EII. I tried to point out the FOV and the 3-D image of the EII, but the scenery was very bland for those qualities to stand out. Tells me where you use a binocular for comparison is quite important.

Click to expand...

Perhaps your colleagues found the Monarch 8x42 easier to use with its larger and differently designed eye cups and longer eye relief?

I have used my 8x30EII quite hard over the last 13 or 14 years and I really like using it. But after using binoculars with modern eye cups I need a bit of time to adjust to those old-fashioned fold down rubber eye cups when I take it out for use. I also have had to re-glue its rubber covering back onto the objective tubes on a couple of occasions.

I recently got a Monarch 7 8x30 which I have been using as a car binocular wherever I go. I have used it in all daylight conditions and I have become more impressed with it the more I use it. It has large comfortable eye cups and wide diameter oculars for a 30mm binocular. I know there are some complaints about it but I can find no faults with mine at all. It is more compact than the 8x30 EII and handier to carry around.

Bob

Subzero888 said:

Just wanted to bump the 8X30 EII thread lest someone opens a new one I still use my EII regularly and like it a lot.

A few months back I took it to work to compare it with a Nikon Monarch 7 8X42 a colleague had. We were looking at buildings, traffic and other landmarks from the 20th floor office window. The Monarch 7 was very nice to use with the bigger objective lens and looked very bright. A few other colleagues who have never used binoculars seriously also took part in the impromptu test and overwhelmingly liked the Monarch over the EII. I tried to point out the FOV and the 3-D image of the EII, but the scenery was very bland for those qualities to stand out. Tells me where you use a binocular for comparison is quite important.

Click to expand...

Small porros, like the 8X30 E2 and 8X32 SE, do not have wide appeal. They are old-fashioned, clunky looking dinosaurs that, for many, pale in comparison to the sleek, modern appearance of roof prism models. However, there isn't a Monarch on planet earth that matches the image delivered by a good E/SE porro. Heck, there aren't a whole lot of alphas that match these models. Just when I think I don't need it anymore I grab my SE and wonder why I own anything else. :h?: