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2016 UK Orchids (1 Viewer)

Mike/all,

The Dactylorhiza article has been made available by one of the authors here:
http://www.academia.edu/2134936/Tax...he_British_and_Irish_tetraploid_marsh-orchids

As far as I understood, the situation regarding the Lindisfarne Helleborine population is not straight forward. Whether it is a species or not has been extensively discussed in various literature for the last decade or so, and may also need to include how you define other 'Dune' Helleborine populations around the country.

A couple of quotes on the subject. If you go through the Refs. of these articles you can find most relevant papers and contrary views. There may also be more recent work if you go forward rather than back:

Richard Bateman (2009) What’s in a Name? 1. The Heavy Responsibility of Using a Previously Described Name JOURNAL of the HARDY ORCHID SOCIETY Vol. 6 No. 2 (52) April 2009
58

"...available genetic data would allow recognition of Epipactis sancta as either an unusually poorly differentiated species or an unusually well differentiated subspecies of E. dunensis. Given the relatively equivocal genetic data, the choice should perhaps be made on the basis of careful statistical comparison of the morphology of the Lindisfarne population with other closely related helleborines. Such work has not yet been published, either for E. sancta or for the even more problematic Tyneside populations of E. dunensis."

John Richards & Jane Squirrell (2009) Epipactis leptochila complex in Britain BSBI News 112

"The question of the identity of the plants on Lindisfarne, in North Northumberland, is more problematic. These resembled west coast E. dunensis in their isozyme profile, but displayed an unique chloroplast DNA sequence which was unlikely to have derived from other sequences in this group. Nevertheless, the 'Lindisfarne Helleborine' (E. sancta) is not as distinct from west coast E. dunensis, molecularly, as E. dunensis is from E. leptochila and E. muelleri. If the 'Lindisfarne Helleborine' were morphologically identical to west coast E. dunensis, this would raise the interesting question as to whether two plants of different origins but closely convergent morphology should be regarded as the same or different species. However, it is the opinion of JR that the 'Lindisfarne Helleborine' does not resemble E. dunensis very closely, having in particular a less dense inflorescence with fewer flowers, which is relatively longer in relation to the leafy part of the stem. This contention requires detailed analysis, and until this is published, we would welcome the taxon E. sancta with some considerable caution. At present, we regard it as a useful 'workname' rather than a proven species."



On a more basic note, some nice Fly Orchid rosettes from North Hampshire on Wednesday:
 

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Personally, I don't think it matters too much whether Lindisfarne helleborine is a different species or not; it does look slightly different from dune and 'tyne' helleborine and it would be a shame to miss out exploring Lindisfarne and hopping across to the Farne Islands while you're there. However, make sure you don't take the incredibly sticky pirri-pirri-bur to another dune system on your boots.
 
One Early Purple open on Minchinhampton Common, Glos today. That's about a week earlier than normal. Not sure if it'll survive the frost tonight though.
 
Mike/all,

The Dactylorhiza article has been made available by one of the authors here:
http://www.academia.edu/2134936/Tax...he_British_and_Irish_tetraploid_marsh-orchids

As far as I understood, the situation regarding the Lindisfarne Helleborine population is not straight forward. Whether it is a species or not has been extensively discussed in various literature for the last decade or so, and may also need to include how you define other 'Dune' Helleborine populations around the country.

A couple of quotes on the subject. If you go through the Refs. of these articles you can find most relevant papers and contrary views. There may also be more recent work if you go forward rather than back:

Richard Bateman (2009) What’s in a Name? 1. The Heavy Responsibility of Using a Previously Described Name JOURNAL of the HARDY ORCHID SOCIETY Vol. 6 No. 2 (52) April 2009
58

"...available genetic data would allow recognition of Epipactis sancta as either an unusually poorly differentiated species or an unusually well differentiated subspecies of E. dunensis. Given the relatively equivocal genetic data, the choice should perhaps be made on the basis of careful statistical comparison of the morphology of the Lindisfarne population with other closely related helleborines. Such work has not yet been published, either for E. sancta or for the even more problematic Tyneside populations of E. dunensis."

John Richards & Jane Squirrell (2009) Epipactis leptochila complex in Britain BSBI News 112

"The question of the identity of the plants on Lindisfarne, in North Northumberland, is more problematic. These resembled west coast E. dunensis in their isozyme profile, but displayed an unique chloroplast DNA sequence which was unlikely to have derived from other sequences in this group. Nevertheless, the 'Lindisfarne Helleborine' (E. sancta) is not as distinct from west coast E. dunensis, molecularly, as E. dunensis is from E. leptochila and E. muelleri. If the 'Lindisfarne Helleborine' were morphologically identical to west coast E. dunensis, this would raise the interesting question as to whether two plants of different origins but closely convergent morphology should be regarded as the same or different species. However, it is the opinion of JR that the 'Lindisfarne Helleborine' does not resemble E. dunensis very closely, having in particular a less dense inflorescence with fewer flowers, which is relatively longer in relation to the leafy part of the stem. This contention requires detailed analysis, and until this is published, we would welcome the taxon E. sancta with some considerable caution. At present, we regard it as a useful 'workname' rather than a proven species."



On a more basic note, some nice Fly Orchid rosettes from North Hampshire on Wednesday:

Thanks Gareth - that's fantastic.

Great Fly pics too. I'm glad to see the central leaf is erect! I've found this to be a consistent feature for the rosette of this species.

Mike
 
Small correction reference "Hebridean Marsh Orchid" - it is actually considered part of the D traunsteinioides complex, Pugsley's Marsh Orchid. Narrow-leaved does not occur in the UK.

In terms of Lindisfarne Helleborine, species status was attributed to it as a way of helping its conservation status (as a British endemic with a tiny population), because if it had been treated as a subspecies it would have had little or no conservation value. As mentioned above, no biometric evaluation has been published, although a partial one has been done. Getting near to all the plants on Holy Island to do the full suite of biometric measurement (and what values would you record, and how many times over how many seasons to give valid data?) is nigh-on impossible and would require proper permission.
 
Do people here think the flowering season is going to be late, early or typical this year? Reason being I am planning a trip down to Kent and Sussex to see those orchids rarely or never seen north of the Thames. I have noted all the sightings on the threads back to 2012 - what is flowering and where, and could choose the week with best overlap between flowering times to maximise sightings. It does seem to be slightly earlier flowering this year, but comments seem to indicate the more recent cooler spells may have put it all back a bit.

Any opinions very welcome
 
Do people here think the flowering season is going to be late, early or typical this year? Reason being I am planning a trip down to Kent and Sussex to see those orchids rarely or never seen north of the Thames. I have noted all the sightings on the threads back to 2012 - what is flowering and where, and could choose the week with best overlap between flowering times to maximise sightings. It does seem to be slightly earlier flowering this year, but comments seem to indicate the more recent cooler spells may have put it all back a bit.

Any opinions very welcome

More or less normal in north Wiltshire for both early purple & green winged flowering, with leaves of bee, twayblade, common spotted, greater butterfly and both early & southern marsh at expected stage of development. Certainly not an early year.
 
Do people here think the flowering season is going to be late, early or typical this year? Reason being I am planning a trip down to Kent and Sussex to see those orchids rarely or never seen north of the Thames

Its been cold most days this week in Kent. 2-4 degrees lower than the expected average. The forecast for next week is very similar. If this continues its unlikely to be an early year. From the reports of Green Winged Orchid at Orchid and Early Spiders at Samphire Hoe I would say a typical year so far.
 
Early Purples looking good in Surrey now; probably another week to go until they're at their best though!
 

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Early purples flowering north of Cardiff, South Wales. I would say this is a fairly normal year going on previous dates, not particularly early or late.
 
Definitely I'd say not an early year, with things moving slowly with the cold late spring - the first early purples only just coming out in East Sussex. Depending on what you want to see, as long as things progress 'normally' from now, I'd say that third and final bank holiday weekend will give good chances of seeing Early Spider (I find East Sussex ones seem to be best later than Kent), Burnt (ES) and Man orchid (Kent, very rare in ES) in good condition third weekend and Lady orchid and Greater butterfly orchid and at the outside Late spider orchid (more likely early June), in the last weekend as well as other more widely seen species. Hants is also good of course in late May and first half of June. If things go slower, there will still be great things to see last half of May and start June, it will just depend which and where!
 
My Kent and E. Sussex trip now booked to start 21st May based on all the information. Many thanks and wish me luck ;)
 
Dorset Early Spiders

Still a fine display of Early Spiders on the Purbeck coast with hundreds, if not thousands, on show. Some are a little past their best but still plenty of good ones.
 

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what is this please

Sorry for going off-topic so to speak but I saw this in Spain and at first distant glance I thought a Twayblade but not so on closer inspection. I thought someone on here would be able to help. Unfortunately flowers had gone over. Thanks.

IMG_3098 (480x640).jpg
 
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