When I First Saw That Picture I Thought It Was A beardedIt looks a bit long-tailed to me though
Reedling A Bearded Tit....
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Acro London (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Vespa
- Start date
Reedling A Bearded Tit....
Richard Prior
Halfway up an Alp
Yes, sorry about my image doctoring everyone, on what's meant to be a serious thread.
I'm sure it's a Reed Warbler too, though cropped nostrils is one of the options my barber offers me when I go for a haircut (he's from Sicily so I never dare to refuse the 'offer').............
Jane Turner
Well-known member
That 3rd primary emargination isn't getting any closer to the secondaries!
Mark Lew1s
My real name is Mark Lewis
It's not easy to be sure what I'm seeing - but is it possible that the third primary is the one that is slightly displaced. If that's the case it would explain why we can't see an emargination. Well, why I can't see an emargination anyway!
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
Hello again,
The second set of photographs showed an obvious difference in coloration hue which it can not be judged as I acknowledge before. Also some features I'm still seeing her which can rule out the ERW:
1. The color of the op in the second set is typically match MW better;
2. The pale tips / fringes of the pp are become more visible;
3. The bill is somehow "swollen" at the lower base of mandible and you can see the black shade there and match it with :http://birdingbytrain.wordpress.com/tag/caspian-reed-warbler/
4. The white throat become obvious, but comes in secondary importance;
5. The nostrils is obviously rounded and I badly failed to see it as an oval or elongated shape see :http://birdingbytrain.wordpress.com/tag/caspian-reed-warbler/
6. Wide super. Plug in the total edge of the eyes;
7. Uniform wearing of upper parts and rump;
8. The legs seems pale if it was exposed well to light and not shaded by the op bird body, but that a secondary importance
9. The amazing bulky hippolais appearance for this bird and in contrast with slim , agile and pointed look for RW in such pause.
Omar
Tib78
Well-known member
I wholeheartedly disagree with your analysis Omar. Without going into too much details, the overall colour, rump colour, fairly rounded primary projection, noticeably worn plumage (Check the shortest pair of tertials!) make it impossible for me to see a Marsh warbler here. And I handled both species just yesterday during a ringing session. So we might just have to agree to disagree...
And Jane, what you labelled "E?" in your editing does not look like an emargination to me, I think it´s the margin of a primary disappearing under another feather. With all due respect, trying to read the wing formula with those displaced primaries seems a bit pointless in this case.
And Jane, what you labelled "E?" in your editing does not look like an emargination to me, I think it´s the margin of a primary disappearing under another feather. With all due respect, trying to read the wing formula with those displaced primaries seems a bit pointless in this case.
The hind claw seems a bit long and perhaps dark for a Marsh Warbler also, but I concede that this is very difficult to even attempt to evaluate with any certainty here. The primary projection is shorter than I'd expect on a Marsh Warbler, and the condition of the primaries, being quite worn and lacking obvious pale tips, would also suit Reed better for me. I also agree with Tib that what Jane has marked as an emargination is merely a photographic artefact caused by two primaries overlapping each other.
Comfortably a Reed Warbler for me, then.
Comfortably a Reed Warbler for me, then.
Jane Turner
Well-known member
It does beg the question - if that is an artefact - where is the emargination where it should be on a Reed - ie higher up the feather (bearing in mind I still think its a reed)
You can see the displaced feather producing a pseudo emargination about level with the end of the tertials
You can see the displaced feather producing a pseudo emargination about level with the end of the tertials
Vespa
Tom Hines
This is the only other shot I have of the bird, unfortunately some of the primaries are obscured by a reed. However, the bird has moved and the primary that was displaced is now back in formation. The emargination appears low down, unless this is one of the feathers going under the adjacent one.
Other points are that the overall plumage looks fairly dull and not particularly rufous. The nostril is on the round size, more so than other reed warblers I have looked at, although if it is just a short billed Reed, I guess this could affect the shape of the nostril too!
Other points are that the overall plumage looks fairly dull and not particularly rufous. The nostril is on the round size, more so than other reed warblers I have looked at, although if it is just a short billed Reed, I guess this could affect the shape of the nostril too!
Attachments
Jane Turner
Well-known member
Can't comment on the nostril - but it seems the emargination on the 3rd primary is where it should be for RW
Iraq Babbler
Well-known member
It is a strange Eurasian Reed Warbler for me, bill , nostrils, plumage is MW and Jane the e. a bit backward ? And there is another e? Perhaps and I cannt read it well, the pp seems rounded but it we'll shown in the initial op photograph,
Omar
This thread is clearly not "Warblers 101" and for those like myself with less experience it is very interesting and educational. It poses some questions though.
How could you say for sure what type of warbler you came across pre digital photography without hearing it sing?
The details discussed here are finer points that could not be picked out in the field.
Those of you who prefer using bins only, how accurate are your life lists?
Not that it matters much what you have on that list except to you, but how can you confirm in the field what type of warbler this is with any degree of certainty without hearing the voice? Are you just going by environment?
May be its my lack of experience speaking, but a good photo, of which these all are, can cause quite a debate as to what species this is, although it now seems clear that it is a Common Reed Warbler. There must be a lot of lists with just Acro sp listed.
and for those like myself with less experience it is very interesting and educational. It poses some questions though.How could you say for sure what type of warbler you came across pre digital photography without hearing it sing?
The details discussed here are finer points that could not be picked out in the field.
Those of you who prefer using bins only, how accurate are your life lists?
Not that it matters much what you have on that list except to you, but how can you confirm in the field what type of warbler this is with any degree of certainty without hearing the voice? Are you just going by environment?
May be its my lack of experience speaking, but a good photo, of which these all are, can cause quite a debate as to what species this is, although it now seems clear that it is a Common Reed Warbler. There must be a lot of lists with just Acro sp listed.
Mark Lew1s
My real name is Mark Lewis
Hi Andy,
It's a good question. Records for spp like blyth's reed warbler were pretty much restricted to trapped birds in the past. Songs and calls were probably very heavily relied on, and still are. These things tend to sing out of sight - and I'd hazard a guess that most out of range marsh and blyth's reed warbler found in the UK this spring were first located (and probably ID'ed) on song.
However, I don't think it's an issue for this bird. You'd have looked at this bird in the field and thought that there was no reason to suspect any species other than reed warbler. The only reason we got into the minutiae was to make a irrefutable case for that species because someone was pushing for an alternative ID.
It's a good question. Records for spp like blyth's reed warbler were pretty much restricted to trapped birds in the past. Songs and calls were probably very heavily relied on, and still are. These things tend to sing out of sight - and I'd hazard a guess that most out of range marsh and blyth's reed warbler found in the UK this spring were first located (and probably ID'ed) on song.
However, I don't think it's an issue for this bird. You'd have looked at this bird in the field and thought that there was no reason to suspect any species other than reed warbler. The only reason we got into the minutiae was to make a irrefutable case for that species because someone was pushing for an alternative ID.
Thanks Mark, I saw lots of ERW up on the banks of the Elbe recently and the song attracted me to them. With good fieldcraft I got close enough for good views a lot of the time, (even good photos). I did notice that in general they would climb up the reeds to sing unless they were disturbed and then they dropped lower and continued singing. I've done very little birding in the UK just when I'm over for holidays, so my knowledge of what, when and where is sorely lacking. Over here both ERW and MW are seen often and I suppose you would have to be a bit more careful without a call or song. You can't beat experience, though, only accumulate it.
KenM
Well-known member
In response to Mark's comments regarding sight records (particularly) of BRW. I know it's going to sound arrogant...but it's the truth. Perhaps it was the neutral lighting, availability/proximity of the subject bird on the day, but the ID-ing of the October 2001 London BRW, irrespective of the incongruousness of the site at the foot of Citigroup tower (Canary Wharf) was fast and straightforward!
The wing formula/overall grey brown tones and behaviour were seen, and immediately compared (in the mind's eye) to Reed Warbler....there was just No comparison! The point being...If literature and field guides persistently underline the ''almost'' inseparable differences between the three main confusion species, then rank and file are going to believe it and not attempt to ID. My understanding and experience of A.scirpaceous was the ''single'' most important factor, which led to the successful ID of A.dumetorum, I rest my case.
Cheers
